00:00.00
tylerking
All right Rick so last week we were talking about your profit sharing agreement I just want to jump right in tell me about it. How are things going.

00:08.70
Rick
Going? Well um so I basically ah copyd and pasted the less annoying crm agreement and made slight edits and called it leg uphelts compenation agreement bit. Thank you so much for sharing the details if you didn't tune into last episode basically Tyler I talked about. How I could take what um has worked at less knowing Crm and apply it like a belt specifically with regard to offering fake equity for lack of a better word. Um to employees that acts like equity from a profit sharing standpoint and converts to equity in the event of an acquisition but doesn't actually isn't actually equity um so for example, if an employee leaves they they lose it over time. But yeah I I wrote it all out. Um, condensed what you did made a few edits to suit my needs. Um rewrote um, so there are kind of 2 documents 1 is what I would call like our compensation overview. And it's like how we think about compensation. 1 thing I really liked was how you broke your document up into 4 stages. Um, where it's like so you know stage 1 is you know, just like custom agreements with each partner to make them happy stage 2 was getting to like ah ah say that everyone to the same base amount.

01:18.28
tylerking
Ah.

01:26.55
Rick
And then stage 3 is where like the first phase of profit sharing starts I mimicked that those 4 stages um just changed the numbers a little bit. Um, but like 1 thing it just so happened that right after we had that episode Nathan Barry who is the founder and Ceo of convert kit tweeted about his profit sharing and compensation model.

01:42.57
tylerking
Yeah I saw that.

01:46.30
Rick
So I took some stuff from him took some stuff from what you had 1 thing that I really liked about his philosophy and I use this to sort of guide. Um the philosophy of our compensation overview is that there's sort of 3 outcomes that you want employees to be happy with like. You know if if it's a downside scenario we fail. We want people to feel like I want Jd my partner and any other partners and employees are being on to feel they were compensated fairly and like it wasn't unfair in a modest success scenario. We want people to basically be able to build their wealth right? like they're not like.

02:10.32
tylerking
Yeah, yeah.

02:21.97
Rick
Just scraping by in a windfall like super charged scenario. We want people to experience financial windfall and so that's how I designed the stages was basically phase one is custom agreements and if we fail during this this phase you're not going to be like mad about it.

02:37.66
tylerking
So yeah, you got paid something. It maybe wasn't your market rate. But you didn't get totally screwed over.

02:38.28
Rick
Um, we'll take it 1 year at a time. Yep yep, and then the upside potential is what you you know was part of your compensation stage 2 where you're happy with your compensation. It's a base. We're all make the same thing and you're able to build a little bit of wealth but it's not like. Like life changing um stage 3 is sort of like oh wow now you're really able to invest you know and proactively and in wealth building. Um and stage 4 is like okay this is like really this is exciting type of money.

03:08.92
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, cool. Um, so you had this conversation with J D I'm not sure what all you can share but like ah are things moving along.

03:18.81
Rick
Yeah, we yeah and principal agreement. So I hope I'm not jumping to get here but like it's just basically onboarding at this point and signing the share agreement. So there's a separate document that is more formal in nature. It's more of a contract that actually ah. Grants I don't want to call it phantom but like phantom equity um a number of shares to Jd um, and so he you know he's got to review that and sign it. But other than that it's just onboarding him March first as a w two employee versus a ten nine nine contractor and he's full time.

03:41.16
tylerking
Yeah, yeah.

03:53.23
tylerking
Wow, that's awesome. Have you put any thought into So one thing I Do That's a little weird is like everybody's getting paid w 2 including me like I could in theory pay myself and bracken my cofounder we could pay ourselves like distributions and then the other partners could get w 2 income but like. Feel like that was just messy because like taxes like then I'm paying lower taxes than other people. So is that fair, um, have you put any thought into that.

04:19.33
Rick
Yeah, um, so we are ah the employees are employed at the legup ventures level which is a c corporation. So there's very, there's there's minimal benefit and. Paying dividends pay myself as a nonw two employee. In fact, it's actually there are tax advantages to me being a w 2 employeeed too. So but the plan is for us partners to be W2 and me to be w and 2 primarily because then we can do things like tax-free benefits which technically I think because you're an I think less snow make serums an lc. And you're.

04:52.59
tylerking
We're in Lll see taxed as I always mix up Cns Corp but taxed as one of the corporations. Okay.

04:57.79
Rick
It's probably an S Corp and what that means is that you're technically self-employed on your tax returns. Which means that you can't take advantage of some of the um you know employee like ah benefits you yeah.

05:11.80
tylerking
Okay I if you say so I think so or if it's not I no one ever told me I don't know.

05:15.65
Rick
Like your health insurance I don't think is tax deductible at the corporate level is it what is okay, yeah, there's like weird laws like related to 2% shareholders ah yeah of lss and escors. Um that affect taxability of benefits I know this because of.

05:32.70
tylerking
Okay, it's but yes I mean the more people you have the lesson matters if like 1 person's health care is taxed so it's possible. We're paying taxes on it and I don't even care you know I don't know. Okay.

05:34.91
Rick
My previous come like life. But um, it's not a big deal.

05:45.50
Rick
We get to readduct it at the end of it's a wash for you but it just happens differently. Um, but yeah, but you know long story short yes w two I'm going to be a w 2 employee. Um and pay myself like the the baseline um the stage 2 is getting all partners to hundred fifty k in salary. Um.

05:52.80
tylerking
Gotcha.

06:02.36
tylerking
Cool.

06:04.94
Rick
Annual salary and the assumption is that it's not written and you know spelled out but it's the assumption that would be w two salary.

06:08.99
tylerking
Got you cool? Well that's exciting. Um any other like updates on that front or anything worth discussing.

06:18.64
Rick
I'm just excited to get this done and I didn't you know it felt like I didn't get anything done for the last six to eight weeks that I was working on this but you know one of my things in my newsletter this week was you know there's different types of failure. Some failures reversible. Some's not um, if it's reversible. Go fast if it's not go slow and this is one of those things that like I had to get right because if I if I laid the wrong foundation here. It could come back to bite me so I went slow so it feels like I didn't make a lot of progress over the last eight weeks but now that this is done once. Jd's onboard onboarded paperwork's done.

06:40.72
tylerking
Yeah, yeah.

06:53.67
Rick
I can start focusing on helping him move the business forward.

06:56.45
tylerking
Yeah, well in getting him full time like it doesn't matter what happens with your time. You're not because you have a different full time job like your time's kind of meaningless here compared to his I feel like.

07:06.11
Rick
On a relative basis. Yes, but you know you still like you still want to contribute meaningfully to the shortterm goals and I feel like I've been like not if anything I've been distracting from the short-term goals but like you know, but you know it's It's to set up the long-term play. So um.

07:11.40
tylerking
Yeah.

07:17.59
tylerking
I Hear you? Yeah, so hopefully you can You can get back into it pretty soon though, that's awesome. Well I I'll hold my congrats until it's official but sounds like they'll be in order.

07:24.80
Rick
Yeah, yeah, so but. Yeah, yeah, it feels good. Thank you very much for your help like if anyone wants to see what I did um I can get Jd's deal you know agreement. It's it's general for our company. So I I think I'm okay, sharing it? Um, but ah, you know if you if you read it just know that basically Tyler wrote it and then I copied it. Um.

07:46.33
tylerking
But I'm actually glad you you are doing this because I've had a couple people I've been in like Twitter conversations with people where I was like oh I had a profit sharing agreement and then people will dm me and be like can I see it and my problem is I'm like it's.

07:47.83
Rick
So really yeah.

08:00.93
tylerking
It's really outdated and I don't think it was like I'm sure you went through it and fixed some things and so I felt a little uncomfortable sharing it. So now I can just say be like go talk to Rick and you'll get a actual good copy of what I did. Ah.

08:10.54
Rick
Ah, ah yep, yeahp Yeah, there are some like there's some little issues in the in the employee share agreement that were like oh this is weird. Um, that had to fix. But yeah, yeah, like did you pay like you paid attorneys for that.

08:17.11
tylerking
Yeah, which is why I was uncomfortable sharing it with strangers. Ah, not did I share with you the one that was like a word document that? Yeah yeah, we paid Attorneys for that. It's also it had a bunch of like math or not a bunch. It had like a mathematical formula in it where like the characters like it's some ascii thing that didn't.

08:29.34
Rick
Um, yeah, yeah, that's so sad.

08:42.20
tylerking
Translate to the new version of word or something so you can't even read what the formula is yeah.

08:44.41
Rick
Yeah I'll I'll share what I ah it be. You know before I put make it public can I share everything with you just make sure I didn't screw anything up drastically and then then I'll make it I can I'm happy to make this public.

08:53.28
tylerking
Yeah I'm I'm not going to I'm not going to know know the difference. But yes I'm happy to review it? Ah yeah, I'm um I'm trying a new routine. Ah so in our kind of.

08:59.61
Rick
What about you? What's going on with you.

09:10.10
tylerking
End of year recap thing I said that one of my focuses for this year is going to be um, more design work and that really means more deep work like I've been on a manager's schedule for a long time I kind of said last year is more like a 9 to 5 schedule. So I'm trying to like play around with ways to give myself the space to do deep work. And so this happened accidentally. But now I'm going to try to formalize it so two weeks ago I just coincidentally had a lot of free time and I got a lot of design work done and it was great. Um, then last week because I got so much deep work done the week before but I'd kind of let a few little admin tasks pile up on my plate I was like I'm not going to do any deep work this week I'm just going to I'm going to end the week with a clean slate That's my goal and I mean I still have things on my list but all the stuff that's time sensitive that I cared about was great and so coming into this week I'm just like I'm going to close my task list. Not worry about like if something time sensitive comes in I'll deal with it. But I'm going to get myself more time for another deep work week. We'll see how it goes but I'm going to try to alternate like this I think it could work out. Well I wish she hadn't asked that not great just enough little things did come up today. But um I I even aside from like did I get work done. The answer is no but.

10:10.86
Rick
How's the first day of this week going

10:25.72
tylerking
I Feel less pressure and I feel like I have the freedom to like go into tomorrow ready to do this stuff? Yeah, exactly Yeah, there's nothing I need to do where I'm like feeling guilty like oh I really need to do that thing. So.

10:31.41
Rick
And more importantly, if you do get in the zone you can stay in it for the rest of the week which is the key part now.

10:45.46
tylerking
Ah, yeah, we'll see how it goes but I'm given a shot. Um, we also this like doesn't have much to do with me but it makes me feel good. We kind of had like a shipping spree like the developers just you know we've got whatever 5 developers working on features and stuff and sometimes just coincidentally. Multiple cool things get done all at the same time and we just had over the last two weeks some pretty cool stuff. Got done on the product and man it just it just feels great.

11:11.29
Rick
Do you like? can you share what they did like is it significant.

11:14.95
tylerking
Yeah, um, so one of them These are all like boring. We make a pretty boring product but like so pipeline permissions which is we have pipelines like leads or just tracking different processes previously we you could control what context another user could see so like.

11:22.65
Rick
Hope.

11:34.88
tylerking
1 sales rep couldn't see another sales rep's leads but everybody at the company could see the lead pipeline and what the statuses were and what the custom fields were so for bigger accounts. We had some requests that are like the the management level once like a pipeline for like performance reviews or something like that with employees and they don't want. It's it's not that they don't want people to see the data. They don't even want people to see that the pipeline exists in the first place so that's probably the biggest one we added and that was for this big enterprise client. We have.

12:02.99
Rick
Um, interesting. Did you just say that customers are using your crm to track performance reviews for their employees.

12:08.49
tylerking
I don't know if that's quite it. But so so let me give a more concrete 1 or a more correct 1 um recruiting. We actually this this comes up with us internally we use the crm for recruiting. But once we hire someone we don't want them to be able to go in and like look at ah. What everyone said about them now this is arguably could be handled with the other type of permissions. But only the people that are involved with kind of recruiting decisions have access to the recruiting pipeline now.

12:35.67
Rick
Interesting yeah lever the way lever applicant lever is a ats applicant tracking system which is basically a crm for recruiters and talent acquisition the way they handle. This is they when you add a user to lever you can link records to them that represent. Like that you don't want them to see and so like um like when you add a user it kind of like flags you and says hey is this did you hire. This is this their like candidate record from when they were interviewing and basically it hides that record you can add. You can add multiple if you want to, but.

12:54.61
tylerking
Interesting.

13:05.51
tylerking
Yeah, got you? Yeah so I actually should probably learn more about we get this request periodically and I probably I should be better at saying what the use cases are but it's the the real ones are like management doesn't even want people to see that the process exists. Um.

13:14.98
Rick
The.

13:20.35
Rick
Um, they want it super secret pipelines. Yeah cool.

13:24.37
tylerking
So I don't know they want it? Yes, yes, Um, but yeah, just other stuff like little Ui improvements. We added the ability to start context. So it's kind of like bookmarking your favorite contexts in the Yearra Just a handful of little things but it really feels like progress is being made.

13:39.60
Rick
And these are things that people requested which means that they're excited when they learned that this thing got done.

13:45.20
tylerking
Yes, yes, all of these are definitely requests and I want to move more towards not just doing customer requests because that's not like they don't have a strategic vision in mind with this. They're just like this is a feature I want so my my goal is by the end of the year to be doing like roughly 20 but 5% of our.

13:56.29
Rick
And.

14:04.64
tylerking
New projects will be responding to customer requests. Um and the 75% will be other stuff right now. It's more like 75% is customer requests. Um, so yeah.

14:16.22
Rick
I'm going I'm thinking this is a tangent We haven't talked about your product roadmap in a long time mostly because we just took a huge high from the podcast but the at the beginning of last year I believe there was you were thinking about you had these new developer resources and you were thinking about.

14:21.50
tylerking
Yeah.

14:30.82
Rick
Um, the roadmap and different starting to think about the roadmap in different ways. Um, how are you currently thinking about the roadmap are you still like thinking like there's this kind of improvement of the existing product. There's product like growth. Um, and then there's also like new products is that are those the buckets you think in.

14:46.58
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, and then the fourth one is just like technical debt stuff like bug fixes and sometimes you got to update your libraries and things like that. So yeah, we have those 4 buckets and we haven't we've done very little product like growth and what I would call strategic is strategy being like the new stuff.

14:50.23
Rick
The.

15:05.19
tylerking
Um, so that's what I want more of and I kind of have like a roadmap for the next four to six quarters um and that we're kind of the next couple quarters is still a lot of customer requests. But then it it moves on to the other stuff.

15:05.40
Rick
And.

15:16.33
Rick
Cool man that's um, that's fun I Would you're you're you're getting to the point now where it's like super like a super creative ah project to think about like those other buckets I.

15:30.65
tylerking
Um, yeah.

15:33.12
Rick
Ah, like when you so when you start getting clarity on those I'd be really interesting to hear about what's getting prioritized and how that's affecting your design as well.

15:38.40
tylerking
Yeah I'd be happy to talk about it I Just always wonder like do people including you have enough context about the product to make sense of what I like I'm happy to just I have the whole roadmap. We shouldn't right now. But if some future episode you want to.

15:49.56
Rick
Yeah I think it's interesting I because it ah it it should drive like your your personal goal is design work right? like and that should drive a lot of how you're thinking about that goal and then also like you've mentioned earlier the podcast that you're shifting less away kind of.

15:56.58
tylerking
Yeah, yeah.

16:09.49
Rick
Marketing's goingnna happen and and maybe it'll be incremental improvement um with with some focus but like the real leaps are going to come from product like grow. So I mean that's that's that's I Guess practical growth is where I'm most interested if I'm being honest know yeah, be cool.

16:18.67
tylerking
Okay, yeah, um, maybe next week we can. We can do a deeper dive into that cool all right back to you? What's next on your list.

16:28.54
Rick
Um, updates. Ah so ah j d's been doing some outreach called outreach experience and having some initial success. So one of the things on my list before I took the windfall gig was. Um, I wanted to I wanted to test reaching out cold to consumers in Utah that you know may or may not offer might may um may or may not buy their in health insurance or just seeing like what the response rate was for that. It's how I got a lot of the clients like was actually warm networking just getting introduced to people. You know he started doing this and he's having some initial success and success in this particular instance isn't necessarily getting a client or even getting someone to sign up for leg of health. It's finding out whether or not they buy their own health insurance and if they buy it through the marketplace. Um.

17:16.38
tylerking
A.

17:20.82
Rick
And in his initial experiments like we're talking low numbers like in the hundreds like low hundreds. He's already profiled ah 4 or 5 people that have marketplace coverage and so there's this sort of like motion of. Identifying people that are consumers reaching out to them and then finding out if they are a qualified lead and then that you know if we can do that predictably? Um, you know at a fairly low cost then there's this whole like sort of marketing pipeline but lead pipeline being built.

17:40.63
tylerking
Yeah.

17:53.10
Rick
Ah, for market like once we figure out how to actually market to these people either to get them to you know, make us their agent or um down the line. Maybe it's in open enrollment. You know, help them through open enrollment in Q Four It feels like we're making progress. So anyway, Um, yeah, it's spam for lack of a better word, but um. I Wanted to tell you that because it feels really good to be making progress on that fret.

18:14.25
tylerking
Yeah, that's awesome. You know my my common complaint about lessening serums growth is that it's like we don't control it and it seems like the classic sass now you're not exactly Sas but like recurring revenue growth model that is repeatable is sales like.

18:29.80
Rick
M.

18:32.25
tylerking
Ah, companies that can really control their growth are like if we just double our sales team. We'll double our leads and you know like that's how you get predictable growth and so it's it's an unsavory type of growth in some ways like you said it's spam but like I'm kind of jealous that it's working for you right.

18:47.37
Rick
What's differentiating us We think is that we have a kind of no sales policy on insurance like we don't want to be insurance salespeople but in this particular instance, we're not selling. We're kind of doing market research ish and then.

18:53.61
tylerking
What. Yeah.

19:03.91
Rick
We're We're not selling insurance Really we're selling the service behind the insurance they already have and so it's It's actually like it's almost. It's it's it's it's less slimy than it could be if we were trying to like push a particular health insurance product on people. Um, so anyway, yeah, but yeah, it's still like very.

19:05.17
tylerking
Yeah I hear you? yeah.

19:17.57
tylerking
Right? It has the like 1 on 1 outreach thing where if you had twice if you had 2 Jds instead of 1 You'd have twice as many leads coming in this this way. Yeah.

19:22.68
Rick
Um.

19:27.42
Rick
Yes, exactly? yeah, it's yeah, exactly very controllable and the other update I have um on the growth front is last week ah or maybe the week before we talked about um we talked about how we joined pandolabs and it was a big investment for us part of our association Utah Association Strategy we did join another Utah business association called the Utah Independent Business Association or maybe the Utah Association Of Independent Businesses I'm not sure which one exactly pardoned me I should be a better member. Ah but I will clarify that and but we did join them and are the route we're taking with that association is a little bit different than we took with Pando Pando we already had a. Ah, strong client base in the membership and so we went straight to a partnership sponsorship level. Um I think we're paying like $2000 a year and then on the united utah independent business association front where we became just members as an entity. So. It's much less expensive and then you know once we build up. Our membership based there. We can explore doing us a larger partnership.

20:27.81
tylerking
So members meaning like what are you gonna go like to networking events or how how are you gonna engage with that community.

20:33.47
Rick
Ah, to to be determined um with Pando For example, we are sponsoring a slack channel and so for example, there's now a benefits slack channel and the um you know it says benefits presented by leg up healthin. So anyway. A member of hell labs who has questions about benefits or health insurance can go in there and ask questions and will help them. Um, that's that's 1 example, another example is ah, there's a roundtable that's virtual um and a couple weeks that I've signed up for to attend with Pando.

20:54.55
tylerking
That's awesome.

21:07.22
Rick
What's interesting on the you know Utah independent business association front is there some active um advocacy campaign campaigns that are health insurance specificific and utah- specific. Um that we could get involved in and so that that would be really interesting is kind of killing 2 birds with onestone getting to know the membership.

21:19.98
tylerking
Yeah, yeah.

21:24.75
Rick
Developing relationships and then also affecting potentially some change. Um as it relates to all of our clients and their health insurance.

21:29.41
tylerking
Cool can I if if someone was like what what would you like lobby for with the Utah state government related to health insurance like what? what would you say.

21:38.89
Rick
Most of my issues are not related to the Utah state government. It's mostly federal. Um, so but but like the 1 thing that I would love to see the state do is just make it more obvious that people are paying for an agent whether or not they're receiving.

21:45.13
tylerking
Yeah.

21:54.60
tylerking
E.

21:58.68
Rick
Value and supporting like there's 200000 people who buy plus who buy health insurance in the Utah marketplace probably 100000 of them are paying for an agent and don't have one and they don't even know that they're paying for something and not getting it.

22:04.17
tylerking
A.

22:14.24
Rick
Just think just making people more aware of that would be awesome. So commission transparency would be the the thing I would advocate for.

22:15.20
tylerking
Yeah, interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool, um, all right? So I'm not sure where what I expect you to say about this but I just wanted to share like a concern on my mind so we've got our growth has been like roughly stable over the last couple years. But. What's actually happening is some numbers are getting better and some numbers are getting worse and they're roughly canceling each other out our number of free trial users has been dropping for the last 2 to 3 years part of this is definitely because we raised prices and so you kind of expect when you raise prices you're going to have fewer customers but they're going to pay you more and so it's fine, but it's hard to attribute. Is that all of the cause or is there something else going on at the same time. Our Churn has gotten better Our average account size has gotten bigger. A lot of things that kind of make like the unit economics of the business better are improving So Our revenue growth is staying stable Now. There's a story where this is really good and there's a story where this is really bad if it's like. Our free trial count is going to level off and then it's going to start growing again. But now we have much better unit economics. That's amazing If. It's no, It's actually just going to keep going down until eventually we Plateau Ah that's terrible and so this is just kind of like on my mind.

23:32.81
Rick
Are these rates or units that you're talking about here like are these can So you said free trials and turner boat down I'm just wondering like is it free trial to paid conversion rates that are down or is it number. Okay and is that like.

23:39.67
tylerking
Rates or you.

23:43.94
tylerking
Oh no, just just the total number of users on free trials.

23:51.20
Rick
If you look at like a conversion rate on top of like traffic or hits to like the key websites that convert is it like that down to or is the conversion rate down. Also.

23:58.47
tylerking
Um I should probably do a deeper dive into that the the trial conversion rate the the trial to paid conversion rate is not down. Ah.

24:04.83
Rick
Yeah, so this feels like ah like feels good like I don't know like it feels like this is more of like a marketing like less of a um conversion issue potentially more of like a oh we've lost some traffic where do that traffic? where do we lose traffic from and. Are we continuing to lose traffic from that like and should we be trying to mitigate that loss or should we be trying to replace it with new traffic.

24:30.72
tylerking
Yeah, that's always been the part of marketing that I'm worse at is like getting that very very top of funnel traffic like when someone's on the site I'm not saying we're amazing at it. But like we a B test the homepage like our our onboarding flows pretty decent. Our Churn is pretty low. All that aspect of marketing we at least okay at.

24:33.89
Rick
Yeah.

24:49.45
tylerking
But the part that I feel most helpless about is like we want more traffic like qualified traffic. Not just like random strangers. Um, and I don't really know how to do that.

24:57.59
Rick
Well the the question here is more related to like a trend right? like of existing traffic going down. It would be good to understand like why like try to understand and you may not be able to but like why do we think the traffic is going down.

25:01.69
tylerking
Yeah.

25:16.15
Rick
And is it something that's going to level off or is it something that is like oh crap we need to do something about.

25:19.36
tylerking
Yeah I don't really have any great ideas on how to do that I've like I've poked around Google analytics and not much stands out but also I'm just bad at this stuff.

25:29.46
Rick
Do You have any sort of cadence around marketing Metric reporting So like the way I would look at this from a management management standpoint is typically I would have some sort of dashboard that is updated on a regular basis. Maybe it's monthly and then I could sort of see like what's happening at the highest level. Like oh yeah, that that number is going down and then you know then I would like either do the analysis or have someone do the analysis like help us understand like we need because this number is going Down. We need to start tracking more like micrometrics related to this so we can better understand like what's actually going down and you may not be able to create historical reporting but you could start like looking at.

26:01.88
tylerking
Yeah.

26:07.56
Rick
This the trends on a more like finer detail monthly or weekly and it could give you some insights.

26:13.36
tylerking
Yeah I mean I have it like down to the level of like so if I look at ah I have like the number of users signing up from each different source. And you're seeing I'm doing air quotes on source because what like we've got a few we know like this person came from this email campaign. This person came from an affiliate referral a user referral but 75% of free trial signups are. What we call unattributed just they come to our website and they sign up now I could probably go deeper and be like what was the first page they hit I think it's almost all our homepage but maybe not so maybe I need to go unpack what that unattributed sources. But that's what's been dropping like if I look at the graph. The. Affiliate referrals are pretty stable. User referrals are pretty stable. It's it's and all the all the other types. There's maybe 10 or 15 total. But the unattributed is going down.

27:05.99
Rick
Yeah, you should be able to like of those people that are unattrited. You should be able to like bucket them a little bit more granularly like how many do we think we're organic search. How many do we think we're paid search Even if we don't know the specific Keywords like how many you know came from a referral website.

27:22.70
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, what we would know paid. We would know paid paid search. We have a separate source for um, this like what I have right now doesn't differentiate between like was it an organic search or a like clicking a link from a different website but um, yeah I can go.

27:23.80
Rick
Ah, kind of thing is that is that what you're talking about like can you get down to that level.

27:37.91
Rick
Um, usually there's there's like a a strong predo effect where you can like knock out ninety eighty to 90% of the sources and focus on.

27:42.50
tylerking
Checkout if I have that data.

27:57.24
Rick
You know the the 10 to 20% that that constitute that and you know 80 to ninety percent the benefit and and focus on those and then you just started start measuring them and you're like oh that's going down I didn't realize that what could be causing that thing to go down. Oh well. Alex stopped going to conferences.

28:08.40
tylerking
Yeah, yeah.

28:15.46
Rick
You know six months ago and that's probably what it is. It's usually like so very generic like gut reactions at least as that's how I've managed it historically? um and then it's like okay well maybe we should start doing those things again and see and if it has an impact.

28:28.60
tylerking
Yeah that's fair, there's also like a ah ah possible story here is that the the traffic we're losing is very low qualified traffic because like I said our revenue isn't really showing signs of this drop. So. It's only concerning if it's like. Ah, trend that continues to get worse and it's real traffic. So maybe I can go figure that out and I'll I'll just be like oh this is actually like. For example, sometimes we run ad campaigns that like 99% of the clicks come from Pakistan and like no offense to Pakistan or whatever but something's going on here. This is not like. How it was supposed. It's probably some bot network or something like that and it's like okay we can ignore that you know.

29:10.66
Rick
Yeah I mean at the end of the day is this something you're losing sleepover right now.

29:14.99
tylerking
No, but it's it's the closest thing to what I'm losing sleep I'm not losing sleep over anything but this is as close as it gets.

29:18.92
Rick
Okay I don't know it feels like if it's if this is like the top of the worry list. It feels like you should be doing something about it. Um I don't know what do you think about that? yeah.

29:27.17
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, hot take? No yeah when you say it like that. Obviously you're right? all right? All all all.

29:38.30
Rick
Know to to do but like it feels like it definite like top like yeah, you should have the top that's kind of an interesting like little framework like what's the top of the worry list like you should always be doing something about the top of the worry list.

29:46.87
tylerking
Yeah, if I wanted to be get defensive here I could be like well I do legitimately think the long-term solution here is to get product like growth going and so that like I'm I'm working on product but that's a bit of a cop out because it's like just because I believe in product like growth doesn't mean I can't also do other things.

30:01.46
Rick
Well, there's also this like there's 2 reasons you might worry about it 1 is like there's some uncertainty around like what actually is happening like the truth like getting to the truth and then there's like affecting a change which is another worry. It feels like this worries mostly like.

30:11.17
tylerking
Oh.

30:20.27
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, yep, you're right? well during my ah non deep work week next week maybe I'll spend some time on this. Well yeah, it's a different type. It's.

30:20.97
Rick
Because you don't understand it more so than um, you know you want to change it.

30:30.84
Rick
This deserves some deep work man like it's gonna require the.

30:38.48
tylerking
It's a different type of work I can I can squeeze this into a couple hours here or there. Yeah yeah, like ah, a big a series of tasks but it's not like super creative work I don't think do you disagree.

30:40.61
Rick
Yeah, you're going to treat this like a task. Yeah.

30:51.63
Rick
I don't know um enough about what you want to try to do but like this would I I feel like if you don't have if you need a deep dive deep into your analytics like you probably need some uninterrupted like it requires me to get in the zone to really Brett my head around some of that stuff. Maybe you're better at it than me.

31:05.72
tylerking
Yeah, that's fair, well I have the advantage we we have our own kind of internal database with a lot of analytics in it and I can just query it directly so I don't necessarily have to find the answers in Google analytics. But um, all right? My final update before we can move on other stuff is so.

31:18.81
Rick
That's nice.

31:25.70
tylerking
Man Ah I'm I'm jealous of fully remote companies these days because we just have to keep going back and forth between opening and closing the office. Ah and I actually don't mind like personally going back and forth because it's like oh it's like a little. It's like.

31:34.16
Rick
Ah.

31:43.12
tylerking
Seasons almost like I'll work remotely for a while and then I'll work in the office but it's obviously pretty hard on some of the employees. Um, so anyway we closed it with oomicron the Omaron wave kind of around the beginning of this year and starting to reopen it. But. As always It's just so hard to know like should there be safety proceed protocols in place and I don't know it's a mess.

32:08.77
Rick
So go remote.

32:11.51
tylerking
Well did did we talk about this in depth since we made the official decision I Like we really did a deep dive on this as a company and re reconfirmed that.

32:21.48
Rick
That's right, you you had you have people that want to be in the office and did you guys decide remind me three days a week because that what is Tuesday Wednesday for there's.

32:28.88
tylerking
Just to to Wednesday Thursday are in normal times would be the required days and yeah I want to be clear. The the reason we're reopening the office at all right now is because like employees demanded it based they were like this is untenable working remotely long term. So.

32:39.44
Rick
In. Part of the value of working at less annoying cerm is being in the office with my coworkers.

32:48.73
tylerking
Yeah, exactly and I want to be clear I'm not saying ah most companies should do it this way but there does need to be a play.. There are a lot of people out there I think a pretty significant minority people that want to be around their coworkers in person and there need to be companies that provide that and you can't just say well. Everyone can choose for themselves and the people who want to go into the office can go into the office because then they don't get what they want if they go in and they're the only ones there so it's tough. But yeah, right now we're doing the whole like masking in certain parts of the office. But if you don't like some people don't want to and other people don't like do and so it's like. Whose preferences. Do you prioritize? so.

33:27.22
Rick
Do you think that we're past this this is the last sort of winter spring of Covid I don't know it feels like people are just tired of it and they're just we're like going to give up on trying to prevent it and we're just going to deal with like.

33:33.56
tylerking
I mean I hope so but I don't have any idea.

33:45.95
Rick
Deal with it like we do with the flu.

33:46.62
tylerking
If every wave from here on out is like Oomicron Maybe but it's very possible that the next one is the worst one yet and like super deadly and if that happens I think that people are kind of I mean like it at less annoying about half the people are like I don't feel safe going in at all right now.

33:54.92
Rick
Are.

34:05.20
tylerking
And they want to come in they like want to. They're people who like working in person but they're like unless everyone is masked all the time I wouldn't go in and then other people are like I don't want to go and masked so and not that they're anti-masked or any anti-mask or anything but they're just like if I have to wear a mask.

34:06.56
Rick
Oh yeah.

34:21.26
tylerking
All fucking day. Why don't we just work remotely which I can. That's how I feel like I don't want to go in there and wear a mask all day.

34:21.67
Rick
Um, yeah, yeah, well um I don't know if that the conversation made you feel better or anything is there like.

34:32.17
tylerking
Now it's more an update than anything just like what a mess but we can move on. Yes.

34:38.69
Rick
Well I'm going to talk about some Nfts real quick because I am like getting to the point of like where I I Still don't get them and they're just getting bigger and bigger and I feel like I'm an idiot so it might can you just level set with me is like is this something I need to like spend a weekend. Beating my head against the wall till I understand or is it something I'm never going to get.

34:59.30
tylerking
I I Want to first say I don't think I fully get them either but part of that's because I don't think anyone does I think people get them at a technological level but are you familiar with the term hollow abstraction that we talked about this on this podcast. Okay, okay.

35:12.31
Rick
We we talked about this on this podcast recently. Yeah, what was what was the concept again.

35:18.67
tylerking
Like it's the idea that like a good ah like good thought like the type of thing our listeners want us to say here are abstract thoughts because abstraction can be applied in lots of different scenarios rather than just talking about specifics. But. So abstraction. We think sounds smart when people talk abstractly we think they're smart hollow abstraction though is when you you only talk abstractly and as soon as you need to drill down into the details you have nothing to say or the argument stops making sense or whatever and that's what I feel like. All this Nft nonsenses is hollow abstraction where they're well okay, but wouldn't it be great if if you if you bought you know a digital good. It could be transferred to other networks and it's like sure abstractly that's good explain how Nfts do that? No answer.

36:04.64
Rick
Are.

36:06.96
tylerking
Ah, wouldn't it be great if like the corporations Facebook and Google and Amazon didn't control the data. Okay, how does nfts how does web 3 do that? yeah.

36:12.38
Rick
Yeah, how does how does buy an ape ah do that. so so I don't I still don't get it I'm I I'm trying to hold out on just like not 1 like not putting in the effort to get it further and I think that's a good investment of my time but like or not notin investments of my time I should say.

36:24.71
tylerking
Yeah, yeah. I agree.

36:31.60
Rick
But I'm starting to feel like the crowd like what is it her mentality of I need to go be involved in this and I I'm getting tired like it's it's irrational like feeling I need to I need to get involved.

36:42.39
tylerking
I took an approach this was several months ago but where I was like I should I should understand how it works even though I'm I'm going to be a hater I can already tell this is a bunch of like mlm pyramid scheme bullshit but I should at least understand it and every earnest effort I made like just it. It. Twisted me in circles and didn't lead anywhere I'd like be talking to people on Twitter and again all these hall strike people just join the discords and just dive deeper and I'm like no tell me like explain just what the point of it is what's the value prop and they're like well you really get it once you join the discords and I'm like if you can't say it. Publicly if I have to join a discord to to get the answer to this because because we we both were're old enough. We've both lived through a handful of like technical technological revolutions right? starting with we were both like high school age when the initial dot com thing happened nobody was struggling to explain why it was exciting.

37:31.11
Rick
Yeah.

37:37.62
tylerking
You order pet food and it comes to your door and you can get live sports updates without having to check the newspaper the next morning It's like easy to say.

37:41.36
Rick
Yeah, but but but like you saw like our parents struggle to adopt these things and and and it's like am I being one of those people like am I missing out here like and is it going to to affect me in 20 years am I to look back here in 20 years at this moment and go Tyler is an idiot I'm an idiot.

37:48.96
tylerking
Yeah.

38:00.84
Rick
Should have been like first you for early adopters we've been early adopter like you're on the more early adopter than me, but anything that you early adopt like when we were living together I would be like jump on the bandwagon like go show me this new phone. Go show me this new tool and now it's like I feel like.

38:11.96
tylerking
Ah.

38:19.42
Rick
I Just were I don't have the interest of going into play with this new tool and.

38:22.37
tylerking
Yeah, and I like I I've had that same concern that like Fomo like what if what if this is us just getting it wrong, but counterpoint. They're like some of the big things that are happening right now like asynchronous video. We're both well ahead of the curve on no code you you especially are well ahead of the curve on those I think.

38:27.10
Rick
Um.

38:42.17
tylerking
They're not as exciting. They're not like promising to be the new internet. But I think they they could actually be pretty big. You had vr long before anyone else I knew it's not that we're not willing to adopt new technology. It's that this one particular part of it just doesn't make any sense.

38:56.33
Rick
Yeah I like just started clicking around and just to play with things to see if it's like trying to talking about minting things and I'm like what the hell is this me like do you understand the minting process hf 2 case.

39:10.40
tylerking
Abstractly I have a hollow abstraction. Um, and yeah and there's gas fees and yeah like I know I read I Read some technical things about like what smart contracts are like I looked through some code that you would write. I Couldn't do it myself. But I at least looked enough that I'm like I think I kind of have basic concepts here.

39:26.14
Rick
There's some really smart people like supporting this and it's just like I maybe I'm missing something I don't know I probably bring this up again in a month and just have the same exact conversation.

39:30.13
tylerking
For what's worth. Yeah, there's some really smart people that are also very very against it too for what it's worth. Um, so speaking of which this might segue nicely I just want to give a shout out. Um, do do you know Kelsey Hightower ah

39:37.71
Rick
Yeah now.

39:49.24
tylerking
If you open this thing in the notion document. There's a link to his tweet. Yeah, he's he's if you want to both learn about web 3 and also hate it which is where I am ah, he's a good person to follow because he he understands it very deeply talks about it intelligently. But also.

39:52.00
Rick
I've I've seen you mention this guy before.

40:07.48
tylerking
He was more open minded a couple months ago if you followed him. But now he's kind of made up his mind and he's like this whole thing's a scam um but he had a tweet that I really liked that I want to call out which is building something new is a form of criticism. Um, and this is addressing one of the things that's so frustrating about the whole wed 3 and nftt scene. Anytime anyone criticizes it rather than like actually getting in an honest discussion about it. People are just like this is so negative like just mind your own fucking business if if it's if it's not for you. It's not for you. Ah, as if like criticism is intrinsically like it's it's the the. Bad people criticize and the good people support which is like such an mlm approach to take right? But what he's pointing out here is like every time you create something new. You're criticizing the old thing like progress doesn't happen without criticism. Um, and. I like that I just think there's too much this is gonna sound bizarre I think there's too much positivity in the tech world right now I like I'm a negative I'm a negative person and like yeah like I'm in this Twitter sphere with a lot of people I like and respect all that. But sometimes I'm like you're all being a little too polite when something stupid.

41:02.95
Rick
Um, just in general.

41:17.71
Rick
Is that an opportunity you think.

41:18.11
tylerking
Call it stupid come on I don't know I hadn't thought of it that way. Do you do you have something in mind.

41:26.15
Rick
Um, well um I don't know I took I kind of went a different direction I went away from nfts and I went to start thinking about the market bubbles. Um, and you know I saw a stat the other day that um, that consumer debt is the highest. It's ever been since 2007

41:45.40
tylerking
Oh yeah.

41:45.58
Rick
Remember 2007 or what happened at the year after 2007 um also like there's been ah more layoffs announced peloton last week several Utah companies this week purple mattress. Um, by the way just did layoffs. Yeah um, Homie homemie did layoffs.

41:58.63
tylerking
Oh really I Love my purple.

42:04.20
Rick
Um I could understand sort of the real estate with interest rates going up like there's a lot of real estate minded companies which homie is one of those but purple surprised me I Guess it's a consumer Good. So if you know consumer debt is getting more expensive then I guess you'd maybe wouldn't buy an expensive mattress. But um, anyway, it's like. It does kind of feel like we've been writing this wave of you know everything's going to be great. Um, everything's going to work out. Ah and you maybe that's coming to an end.

42:26.66
tylerking
I yeah but. Um, I'm I'm like well past the point of trying to predict downturns because like I thought for sure it was coming in like 2016 or whenever and I was obviously I didn't like I know better than to invest my money according I didn't like pull out of the market or anything but I was like if I were a betting man now and I was totally wrong many times. But yeah I agree there's lots of signs of it and did you watch the super bowl last night I I did not but everything everything I fall on Twitter is just like these commercials were just like the you know 90 99 two thousand super bowl commercials where it's all http://these.com stocks that.

42:53.95
Rick
Ah, pieces very very little bit.

43:08.99
tylerking
Ah, year later we're out of business and the all apparently all these crypto companies advertising this year yeah it's hard to feel bullish. But I just keep my money in index funds and it'll go down at some point. Yeah you said is it an opportunity like I'm not I'm not the type of person to. To get wins by financial engineering like I'm just going to keep building stuff and that that works in the long term I think what about you.

43:33.66
Rick
Well general I don't know like I felt like um when when when the going gets tough the tough get going and it's like if you're able to survive the downturn and you know you're kind of in a good position then there's a lot of opportunity and you know being pra pragmatic.

43:51.39
tylerking
Yeah, that's absolutely true and especially if there were a downturn sorry to keep talking about web three here. But if you believe it's not a total scam. What will likely happen if there's a downturn is almost all those companies will fail and then.

43:53.59
Rick
You know? yeah.

44:06.58
tylerking
Ah, couple will survive and like if you look at that's how Amazon and Google came out of the dot com boom that's sort of Facebook ish out of the great recession. Yeah, it's definitely it consolidates behind the winners when everyone's struggling like that.

44:19.53
Rick
Yeah, yeah, cool. Well I'm I'm gonna be more critical this week yeah you're welcome other like people don't like I I have I used to be very critical.

44:25.40
tylerking
I Don't know what to do with that information though. Thank you We should all be a little No I don't know.

44:38.78
Rick
Much more critical I am now but like is there a way to be advice from you is there a way to be critical without being an ass.

44:42.95
tylerking
Ah, probably yes and no like sometimes I'm like on Twitter people are like they're nice so they don't tell me directly that I'm being an asshole but I can tell they think that and it's like to some extent like okay, our personalities aren't compatible. Um. I think there's a difference between being rude and being critical though like I'm not first of all punch up I think is a big part of it I'm not talking shit about people with less power than me you know I don't know I don't know people don't like negativity I get why? But also a.

45:00.82
Rick
Um.

45:18.19
tylerking
Ah, an overly positive world is just lying to itself. Um have one more thing like smaller thing but is there like kind of a bigger topic. You want to talk about today.

45:21.15
Rick
Yep now.

45:26.53
Rick
Um, yeah, so I wanted to address. Um Andy cloak when we announced that the podcast was coming back. Um, one of the questions that he threw outt. Um that he'd like us to address on the podcast was how I'm balancing being full-time with like being full-time at ah at ah at windfall. Um, with continuing to make progress at leg of health and so I thought I could take a minute to address that if it's okay I mean it's I'm probably unique in this regard in that it's really simple like windfall takes priority 100% and if I think if.

45:52.17
tylerking
Um, yeah.

46:04.66
Rick
If like if someone from windfall needs me like it means leg up. Hell's not good. Me. It's just like black and white like there's no if answers butts about that. Um, now the way I've set up leg up health I've I've spent a lot of time creating clarity and providing um sort of a. Ah, ah, an environment for Jd who I've brought on to to make progress without me and that took a lot of engineering upfront for me to be able to do that.

46:28.48
tylerking
Yeah, yeah. So it's worth pointing out here I do think you're in a different situation from like the average kind of indie hacker that has a day job in that you're not like a software engineer for some big tech company. You are a high-ranking executive at a like really demanding. High growth startup. Um where I do think there are a lot of jobs out there where you can be like yeah I'll I'll put my 40 hours a week in but maybe this even if I'm putting fewer hours into the side hustle. It's maybe more important you did not take that job. And there I think there are pros and cons to doing it the way you're doing it probably.

47:10.19
Rick
Yeah, um, pros. Um, you know Compensation's good which allows me to funnel to fund um another person working on like a belt um or at least like support them financially. Um, the the other factor here is a lot of um, the learnings are transferable. Um to you know, future opportunities that like Upheld. So It's like you can draw connections and um, it feels like it's not like 1 ne-off stuff. Ah, cons are. Um, yeah, some weeks like you know if you think about like what why you do startups like the point of doing the startup is to do the startup like it's the experience of doing the startup like I'm missing out on that like um I'm missing out on my startup journey in favor of someone else's um, and. That's you know that's the hardest part like but I but I'm doing it I'm missing out on the short term opportunity for a longer term opportunity that I value more.

48:13.28
tylerking
Yeah, but I think a parallel we can draw is like that. Maybe more people can relate to is you know working a job. You don't love so that you can save up for retirement or you know it's It's that type of sacrifice but but the risk is life passes you buy right? that you took so long doing.

48:29.56
Rick
Um.

48:33.20
tylerking
Doing the thing you didn't want to do that you missed the chance to really do the thing you did and I'm I'm not worried about that happening with you. But I think that's like with a lot of people. You're what we're 36, you're you're 37 whatever like you, you take the job and then ten years later you're like okay well I don't really. Like it's it's too late for that that idea I was going after.

48:52.67
Rick
Yeah, and I think that's the key with this approach with the good thing that that I think anyone is that's doing full time and trying to balance a startup on the side is they're they're saying I'm going to do it. Um, and I'm not going to wait but there is this sort of um. Caveat which is it's going to take longer and it's not going to be as fast and it's not going to be all of all of me as it could be um and so it requires um, an amount of patience on my part that um I have to constantly like or remind myself. Oh this is there are long-term benefits of this approach that you'll experience later.

49:15.37
tylerking
Yeah, yeah.

49:29.88
Rick
Um, just like you shouldn't eat. You know you know, just like when you when you don't eat ice cream for a day. It's painful like you know you know good you know, but that's long term that's good for my health.

49:38.86
tylerking
So I don't know how intentional this was on your part or how much you even thought about it but it it is kind of like a fascinating model for like a startup to last company you hear a lot of people who work their day job while building the thing on the side but not hiring someone you you hear people who work a high income Job. Save up a lot of money and then quit so that they can start their thing with a good cash cushion I really have not heard of very many people doing what you're doing where you're effectively your own venture capitalist working this other job to fund your current company like. While you're working the other. You're not saving up a bunch of money so you can quit later I mean I know that like long term The idea is to be at like a healthful time but like have you heard of anyone doing this before.

50:21.38
Rick
No, but I mean it's a good way to think of it as like it's the holding company model. Um, and the source of funding is instead of an Sba loan or you know raising capital from my investors um or savings it's ah cash flow from ah another job. Um, the the. I think the yeah the way I would categorize. My approach is get a business to like a repeatable model where you've got like okay this is real like this is this makes money customers are retaining like have a lifetime that we can like count on um the product is there. Ah we just need someone. If I focused on this. It would grow like I got it to there and then I said okay like someone else can help me with this and you know moved on and it's interesting to think like long-term is if you start getting this could snowball you know if if you kind of repeat rinse and repeat this across multiple ventures within the legup ventures portfolio like. 30 years down the road like once like up hell during cash reinvesting that cash into another venture you know and and kind of doing the same thing. That's a really interesting thing I haven't really thought of but could work.

51:26.73
tylerking
Yeah, it fits you I think because you're you're more of like a manager delegateator business person type I think the typical if you go on like indie hackers dot com and look It's like a programmer that just wants to write code all day so probably like. They'd be trading 1 job. They don't like for another job. They don't like.

51:45.77
Rick
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I the the interesting about me is I really like I really like the um, the creation part of getting something from nothing to repeatable I really enjoyed that and then I also really like the scaling part I don't like the stuff in between i. Like what Jd is having to do right now. I'm not I I would enjoy doing it but it's not nearly as fun as like the part before for me.

52:10.23
tylerking
Yeah I'm curious just I don't know if this is what Andy had in mind with the question but like I bet it's relevant to some people like imagine you are that programmer type and you could work. You could make three hundred thousand a year from Google or whatever and like take 100000 of that and hire someone. But it means you're fully committed to your full your your day job. Do you think that model is something more people like let's say you're a programmer and what you need to hire is a different programmer or something is is this worth considering for people.

52:30.10
Rick
Um.

52:39.62
Rick
Yes, but I want to reemphasize like how much effort it takes like to engineer not. It's not just it's not just the base though it's like engineering the clarity like that provides someone a so the space and the.

52:46.33
tylerking
Yeah, you have to get it start. You have to get the base first. O.

52:59.41
Rick
You know the guidelines to be successful because they're not an entrepreneur you know or maybe they are but they you know they're not It's not their baby. They're starting from. They can't start from 0 and rebuild the business. So. There's a lot of like I don't want to call it documentation because that. Makes it sound cheesy but like less valuable than it is but it's like creating the the vision the strategy and transferring that to the individual so that they can be successful operating within your vision that is hard.

53:30.10
tylerking
Yeah, but you think you think it's a we at least it's not like you're some unique snowflake that ah other people there are a lot of people out there who have the ability to make a lot of money working some random tech job and it's at least worth considering.

53:33.25
Rick
I think.

53:36.73
Rick
And.

53:47.40
Rick
Hundred percent so I would just say that if you're going to go that route just you need to be willing upfront before you get sucked into that job. Um, to think through a couple years of like how you want the business to run and and be very clear about what success is for anyone you hire. Otherwise you're going to feel the need to micromanage or they're just going to.

53:47.78
tylerking
That as a way to fund a startup.

54:01.67
tylerking
Yeah, okay.

54:06.65
Rick
They're going to go off on a direction that makes you worry.

54:09.47
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, well it's it's definitely interesting. Ah maybe maybe no one else at least that I know of is doing it because it it is unique to you and maybe just not enough. People are are considering it.

54:19.77
Rick
Well, you know I'm actually thinking of a buddy who who sort of done this and you know, um I'll mention him his name's Chase Murdoch he's ah he's on. He's on Twitter he's taking the holding company route. Um his his firm is called to Dakota group and his it. It started with him so opening up a um, a suit shop in. Ah. And downtown Salt Lake called Taylor Cooperative um he may have interacted with chase on email a couple times or Twitter because he's a big fan of the podcast big fan of what you've built at lessnoing serum. Ah yes, no, no, not that chase. No no could kept getting arrested. No.

54:45.35
tylerking
Okay, first I was like is this the chase you introduced me to in Park City who kept getting arrested but I'm it is so thought that was like that guy.

54:58.48
Rick
Um, ah, not at all. Um, but but this ah and I will not sell I don't know what chase you're referring to but let's not talk about it anymore. Um, ah, Chase Chase but but he he started with Taylor Cooperative and then now he's kind of built a holding company and um, he's purchased 3 or 4 other.

55:04.27
tylerking
Yeah, fair enough. Ah.

55:17.80
Rick
Local businesses. All small businesses all funded through his own capital and and supplemental sba loans. But he's been working a full time sales job while he did that. Yeah.

55:24.58
tylerking
Oh that's great. Okay I mean yeah, like as we talk about this you know, different way this happened at lessnoing serum which is I was working for you 20 hours a week grew less annoying serum to the point where I could have gone full time and instead I hired someone else. So ah, it's different and that I was.

55:33.53
Rick
E.

55:44.45
tylerking
My main job was lessening Crm and working for you is like a part time thing but it's the same and that I hired someone else before buying my own time back to go totally full time on it. Yeah, we probably didn't address what.

55:53.20
Rick
Um, yep, yep, exactly.

56:00.35
tylerking
Andy was even asking about there but like.

56:00.68
Rick
But how do I balance my time. It's like I've created a situation in which there is no balance like it is windfall like 9 like 100% unless I have like and then leg up hell sometimes I get to work on on the weekends if I have a free weekend like.

56:06.46
tylerking
Yeah, like.

56:14.52
tylerking
And I think that's in a way good because I'll say like it I felt guilty because like when I worked for you and was doing my own thing. Obviously my own thing was my priority and sometimes I probably was like letting you down in some ways not like I mean I was doing my job but like. I could have done it better if it had been my main priority. Um I don't know if you perceived that or not.

56:38.16
Rick
I Think in the situation that we had. It was okay for that to happen. It was a side project I think it's all situational right? like this I could not do my job at windfall any other way like.

56:45.35
tylerking
Yeah, yeah.

56:51.22
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, yeah I guess it's just it's good to have that ah understanding with whoever the the day job employer is with.

56:53.80
Rick
And it would just rub everyone the wrong way if I was doing it any other way.

57:04.16
tylerking
Like I would I wouldn't want to do it if like it's a secret that you're doing the side project or you don't feel like you can talk about it or something like that. Yeah.

57:05.80
Rick
In. Totally yeah, clear expectations around how you're balancing your time. Absolutely.

57:14.99
tylerking
Yeah, all right? um, anything else on your mind today or should we call it. Nope.

57:19.54
Rick
Now you got anything else cool. Well if you'd like to review past topics and show notes visit star to last dot com see you next week

57:26.50
tylerking
See you bye.