Rick (00:00.453)
What's up, Tyler?

Tyler King (00:01.858)
What's going on Rick? What up, what up? We're back on Riverside. I think I figured it out. I think I figured out how to make the sound not bad here.

Rick (00:11.011)
All right, we'll have to see.

Tyler King (00:12.94)
Yeah, I said last time I thought my voice sounded bad. A couple of people reached out and said, actually it was you that sounded worse. Not last episode, but two episodes ago. I think I'm just more attuned to my own voice than I am to yours. basically they have like this AI, like, I forgot what they call it, like AI producer or something. And that's what was the problem. If you just use the normal pre-AI.

stuff they have, sounds good. If you use the actual AI stuff, it sounds bad. So yet another case where AI has failed us.

Rick (00:43.793)
Temporarily. It just hasn't gotten smart enough.

Tyler King (00:47.65)
to brew up. want to reiterate what you and I said last time there are lots of good uses of it but there are people are just shoving it in all over the place. Yeah well okay what's going on with you.

Rick (00:56.463)
Might as well.

Well, I guess like the personal news is that I'm apparently we're installing a outdoor hot tub. I am not involved, but.

Tyler King (01:10.762)
were you involved in the like, I know you're not involved in the execution of it, buying a hot tub feels like a thing that is a commitment.

Rick (01:20.399)
It was, it feels like one of those things that like I just got worn down on. You know, it's like, I'm not opposed. I'm not opposed. Yeah. But it's just one of those things where it's like, do we really want to expend the energy and effort to install at one? Because it's like not a small project. I mean, especially where we live, we have to go through all this HOA stuff. And then, and then on top of that, it's like you're signing up for a regular maintenance requirement. Like you can't.

Tyler King (01:24.898)
Hmm. Do you, why are you opposed to it? Just cost? okay.

Tyler King (01:38.563)
Yeah.

Tyler King (01:48.728)
Yeah.

Rick (01:49.873)
I don't think Sable, my wife, understands the maintenance required.

Tyler King (01:56.494)
I mean, as long as you'll just pay somebody, you don't have to do anything, I assume.

Rick (02:00.153)
That's what I would do. That's not her approach to things.

Tyler King (02:02.375)
because yeah, our friend went back when we lived in Park City, Tom Elgin, bought a hot tub for a rental. He was renting an apartment and bought a hot tub in it. And I remember him regretting that decision quite a bit. It took a lot more work than he realized.

Rick (02:14.831)
Hehehehe

Yeah, I had a hot tub in Park City and there's a guy with a business called Hot Tub Guy. And he would literally just like walk around the neighborhood with everyone with hot tubs and just do the maintenance. It was a great business.

Tyler King (02:24.609)
Good name.

Tyler King (02:31.883)
Last time I was in Park City in Utah, when I saw it, me and Robert were there for the little hackathon last year. We rented an Airbnb and it had a hot tub. on the second to last day, someone came in and like did maintenance to it. And then we got in the hot tub that night. And within a few minutes, both of us felt like our skin was burning. Like they put some chemicals in there that for days, I felt terrible. I felt itchy and anyway. But Utah is a great place to have a hot tub though. I am happy for you.

Rick (02:50.319)
haha

Rick (02:56.835)
Yep, that's about right. It is.

Tyler King (03:01.677)
Lots of winter, lots of snowing. You did make me think though, never having an HOA is on my life goal lists. I could never. No, it's the Wild West. You can do whatever you want. And in the city of St. Louis, there are no laws being enforced, let alone HOAs. So I mean, I think we could probably build a skyscraper on our property and no one would do a thing about it.

Rick (03:03.889)
Yeah, kids will like it.

Rick (03:11.387)
Do you have an HOA at your current place? No? Yeah. That's awesome.

Rick (03:27.185)
That's awesome. What's going on in your world?

Tyler King (03:30.541)
You

Tyler King (03:34.816)
Not much, still just waiting for, I'm supposed to be a father any day now. There's like a 1 % chance I get called out of this recording to Uber to the hospital real quick, but mostly just waiting. I'm kind of in a weird mode where I, you know, I've taken a sabbatical before where like, you know when it's gonna start. And so you can kind of plan that. with this, because I didn't, you know, the due date is tomorrow, but.

It's not uncommon, obviously, for a kid to be born before the due date. So I kind of have been ready for two weeks now. Like everything's tied off. Every time I do a little bit of work, I like update all my docs. I rerecord videos for other people to like make sure that like, for example, our designer is currently on parental leave. Like she just had a kid and so she's going to come back while I'm gone. And so I have to have all this documentation for her of like, here's where everything, here's where all the projects are and all this. But so I've got everything ready to go and.

Like when we end this recording, I'm gonna be like, how do I do like an hour of work at a time, not knowing when it's gonna stop, you know?

Rick (04:41.424)
Yeah, exactly. Well, I think it sounds like you've really prepared for it, which is great. And so you have optionality. You can always work, right? But not working is the option you wanted to have. So that's what you've given yourself. And, you know, what you'll find is when you get to the hospital, it doesn't happen right away. You've got a 17 to 20, 16 to 24 hours that you're going to sit there with anxiety. And then once the baby comes, you won't be thinking about anything else.

Tyler King (05:00.789)
Yeah, I do know that.

Tyler King (05:09.217)
Yeah. And I expect, I think it was after we finished recording last time, you kind of said, you expect I will be doing, I will be working cause it's kind of boring with a newborn.

Rick (05:19.185)
I probably shouldn't say this on recording, but yeah, I'm not like, the first two weeks that could be helpful, but after two weeks, it's like, okay, I'm antsy. I'm gonna do something.

Tyler King (05:23.981)
You

Tyler King (05:30.444)
Yeah.

Yeah, so I'm expecting that, I'm hoping, I wanted to get less annoying tied off as much as possible so that I can work on leg up health during that time. I'll still be responding to emails and stuff. I'm not gonna like totally unplug. We talked about that last time. I'm repeating myself, but. And then yeah, I've got, I guess, form update. not gonna, I've been probably talking too much about that. Just more of the same.

Rick (05:39.835)
Heck yeah, that'd be amazing.

Rick (05:47.013)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler King (05:58.978)
Getting some more submissions, stuff's going fine. No big updates there. I have a bigger, like, rambly type topic if we have time at the end of this, but I think maybe we should go through your topics and see if they can fill the time.

Rick (06:09.137)
Okay, cool. Well, I think like we had our partner meeting on Monday this week for the month. Night and day difference between what it was a month ago. Our growth goal, you we have basically a base budget that is a 50 % growth plan. And then we have a stretch goal of doubling, but all the financials are in like sort of budget, budgeted expenses are built on the base 50 % plan. And

You know, all we need to do basically is bring on one new employer a month to hit the plan and 10 consumers. We did that in March, which is a win. But at the beginning of March, when we had our partner meeting, we did not think we were going to hit the goal. It was it was dire. And basically we had a partner meeting. had a I wouldn't call it come to Jesus moment, but we're just like, hey, we got to we got to like simplify how we're doing things. JD went back.

cleaned up his pipeline, started building pipeline like crazy, adjusted our lead purchasing approach. And then this part of me was totally different. Like it was almost so good, like he didn't know what to do at the time. You know, like he was just filling space.

Tyler King (07:21.109)
Yeah, he started just... Yeah, because normally it's like, are the things I'm struggling with, I need help with, and he didn't need any help this time, so it was like, well, I guess I'll just run through updates.

Rick (07:30.927)
Yeah, so he's like, yeah, here's 15 opportunities that are likely to close in the next two months. Like, well, this is different. And he didn't know what to do after he said that. was an awesome problem to have.

Tyler King (07:39.691)
Yeah.

Tyler King (07:44.59)
This connects to one of my big themes, which not that less annoying CRM is crushing it or anything, like the better, the more I'm working on the stuff I should be working on and the more the company is doing the right stuff, the less there is to talk about like on this podcast. And like when I go to a conference or a meetup and people like, tell me about what's going on. It's like, I'm just, we're building features and doing customer service. I don't know what to say.

Rick (08:06.161)
Exactly. So I guess like the takeaway from that is like we have two months of pipeline coverage to hit our goal easily. We have a steady flow of inbound leads in this sort of five to two. Yeah, yeah, sorry, not inbound. Recurring lead flow that is predictable and apparently it seems profitable.

Tyler King (08:23.191)
Quasi inbound, we're buying them, right?

Rick (08:35.505)
with the data so far to continue to build pipeline.

Tyler King (08:38.765)
Yeah, let's talk about that real quick. My understanding is it's something like a 10-month payback period or something like that.

Rick (08:46.329)
So far, it's about a, I'm saying 12 months just for a one year payback, which I'm okay with. But it would be really nice to get it down to like three months because then we could really start talking about going faster. But that's not the goal right now.

Tyler King (08:52.407)
Okay.

Tyler King (09:01.291)
Yeah, I would wonder if anyone out there. like a lot of my read on just like SaaS business model type advice is there was a lot of it in the 2010, like around 2015 ish was when, okay, so in 2010, SaaS was becoming a thing, but it was still like people were figuring it out. Like there weren't really well understood playbooks and like how does churn and expansion revenue and all this work by 2015 ish. think a lot of what are now thought of as kind of canonical really

core blog posts and books and stuff like that had come out. A lot of like, Jason Cohen stuff. I don't know if you follow him. A lot of stuff being like, here's how SAS works. realize like up health is questionable whether it's SAS or not, but it kind of is. it's recurring revenue. Yeah. But it's different in that there's more of a service component, which probably changes the economics a bit. like in that world, a lot of the advice was like, yeah, shoot for a three to six month payback period. If I've.

Rick (09:46.641)
Recurring revenue. Yeah.

Tyler King (10:01.193)
I don't think that's possible these days. It's so much more competitive. like if you could buy leads and get a three month payback period, why wouldn't your competitor pay a little bit more for the leads?

Rick (10:10.789)
Yeah, so I think the standard balance in SaaS, like venture capital back SaaS, is generally a sub-year payback is good. If it's longer than that, it's considered not efficient. a year or faster payback on your customer acquisition cost is considered highly efficient. That doesn't work for me because I don't have venture capital sitting in the bank, like up health.

I'm limited like how quickly I get the money back is how quickly I can reinvest it right now there are options where I guess I could take out a loan of some kind and pay it back you know you know just add the interest of the loan to the the CAC but then I'm getting into this situation where we're a little too early for that and you know anyway

Tyler King (10:42.017)
Yeah.

Tyler King (11:00.757)
I definitely not encourage that, but also just you can be patient. Like the difference between you and a VC back, a VC back company has to at least double every year. You don't. So yeah, the dream that the famous Jason Cohen article says is you, if you have less than a 12 month payback period and you charge annually, you get the payback immediately. Now some of the leg of health customers are paying a monthly fee for the software being provided.

most of the money is coming from insurance commissions. So there's no way to collect the insurance commissions annually, but like the actual dream would be that we can charge an annual like software fee that covers the customer acquisition cost. I don't think we're ever gonna get there, but that would be the real dream.

Rick (11:47.601)
Yeah, exactly. 100%. And I don't have that. I don't think we have that option. Now we could start charging a setup fee or consultative fee. But like that's putting, I think, friction in the process more so than like, yeah. So it's just like, I don't know. But I think the here's like the way I would summarize where we are. We have plenty of pipeline to not worry about sales for the next two months. We have a steady flow of leads and JD has the brain space and time.

Tyler King (11:51.243)
haha

Tyler King (11:59.18)
Yeah, why bother?

Rick (12:16.817)
to go explore other lead generation activities. It's a pretty damn good place to be.

Tyler King (12:22.347)
Yeah, for sure. It feels like, yeah, we're definitely hitting the goal of this year, right?

Rick (12:29.553)
I don't want to say, am so that kind of, that, that, that's right. So, so that transitions nicely to my second topic, which is I am terrified of the economy right now. Like we have a couple of, like we have a pretty, most of our customers are, you know, five to 25 employees, but we've had a couple of customers who came to us at five and 25 employees, but are now approaching a hundred employees.

Tyler King (12:30.869)
Okay, you can't say it, you're in a leadership role, I'll say it.

Rick (12:57.777)
And so they're starting to make up a larger portion of our revenue. losing one of those customers or them downsizing of, what, you know, due to economic conditions would be a pretty, you know, devastating, not devastating, but like it would challenge our ability to hit the number this year. And so I think like, like that's probably what I'm most worried about right now is like, I'm not worried about sales anymore. Now I'm worried about customer attention.

Tyler King (13:15.959)
Yeah, good point.

Tyler King (13:24.353)
Well, not just retaining them, but if we retain them, but they lose half their employees, it's still retention, but we miss our goal.

Rick (13:31.269)
Yeah, there's like like controllable retention and uncontrollable retention or churn. The economic anything is a result of economic uncertainty that is out of our control. Like we just need to be prepared to handle. But like if we lose a customer because they go to another broker, that's the stuff I'm concerned about. And I have a feeling that the economic uncertainty has the potential to cause that. I think it's a huge marketing opportunity for all businesses, but especially business like ours, where if you are the first broker to go into an organization and say, hey,

you need to get ahead of the economy. Let me coach you on how to do this. You have a chance of winning that business. And that's a threat to us as well as an opportunity.

Tyler King (14:12.589)
So what are you gonna do about that?

Rick (14:14.085)
I'm gonna write a blog post. That's where I'm gonna start. I wanna like get the story right first. And then I think we can take advantage of this. But at the end of the day, we were talking about this in the partner meeting. It's not really a large customer problem. It's not a high quantity problem. It's a few customers that we need to wrap our arms around. And.

Tyler King (14:35.083)
Yeah, the two biggest customers are both venture backed like scale ups right now, which are the most fragile companies on earth, right?

Rick (14:42.969)
Yep. Yep. And so we just need to be, we need to be adding more value than we're adding currently. And I think one thing that could help is providing some proactive consulting around how to handle and respond to the economic uncertainty this year as it relates to health benefits.

Tyler King (15:06.999)
you worried about taking too long? Like what I just heard from you is the first person to say this thing wins. It sounds like though at the same time you want to kind of take your time to craft the right message. Those two seem at odds with one another.

Rick (15:21.743)
Yeah, think that I don't feel massive urgency right now. think that this is a, I think we've got weeks to figure this out because it's still pretty fresh. But I think if we're not saying anything by middle of May and we don't have our story figured out here, then I think that we're gonna look like we're not really taking care of our customers.

Tyler King (15:51.342)
That sounds fine to me. You're probably right that MidMay is fine, but I don't know that the message has to be that well-crafted to just have JD send an email to people saying, the economy's crazy, might be on your mind, just want to let you know one of our whole things is we can handle a lot of different solutions. So if you are thinking you want to get ahead of it, get in touch. Without saying, here's Rick Lindquist's master plan for all of this.

Rick (16:18.097)
Yeah, think JD should absolutely do that. I don't think he should wait to do something like that.

Tyler King (16:21.015)
Okay.

Tyler King (16:25.151)
He is though, I was in the meeting. My plan is for you to write the blog post first and then for him to send that out.

Rick (16:30.051)
Yeah, so that didn't that's good point. We should we should correct that. Like that's not that was not an intentional decision. I think that was just like more of like a result of the conversation more so than an intentional decision.

Tyler King (16:33.665)
Okay.

Tyler King (16:43.265)
you. Any other thoughts? The economy thing is just nuts. I don't know what there is to say about it, but

Rick (16:52.441)
It's highly volatile. mean, it reminds me of 2008.

Tyler King (16:56.449)
Yeah, except we're doing it deliberately. Like, I mean...

Rick (16:58.993)
Well, I don't want to get into that. I'm just saying like things are happening that are causing massive...

Tyler King (17:04.653)
But it's different from 2008. that like, that is a difference, right? That like yesterday, the day we're recording this is the day after Trump undid the, you he announced the really big tariffs and they ended it back to 10%. That is very different from 2008. And then he's going to do it again and then he's going to undo it again and then he's going to do it again and then undo it again. Yeah, I don't know what to do with that.

Rick (17:24.305)
Yeah.

I would just say like the massive hysteria is familiar to 2008. It just feels very scary. I'm seeing a bit of panic in the market, like just people tightening hiring very quickly. The response to this so far has been very intense, I think. Not just the stock markets, I'm just talking about day-to-day operations. I think it's causing business leaders to...

Tyler King (17:32.502)
Yeah, yeah.

Rick (17:56.421)
to adjust, to start playing much more conservatively than they were a month ago.

Tyler King (18:02.413)
Yeah, well, an interesting thing that runs through my mind is not 2008, but 2020, which ended up being for most industries, a nothing burger, right? I mean, obviously the pandemic was huge for so many reasons, like financially, stock market, stuff like that, there were two bad months and then it immediately bounced back. But during those two bad months, anyone who was running a company at that time was disaster. That was a sharper drop than this is. And it was more of a like,

Rick (18:29.296)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler King (18:31.959)
helpless feeling for me anyway. Like I'm more frustrated now because it's an own goal, because like I'm ashamed of my country right now. But that one felt less in control, right? was like this could like, who knows what, and it hadn't happened in a hundred years, like a major pandemic like that. So I think we all got practice at that time of like, what, like, what would extreme measures look like? And then we didn't need to end up using them, but we all went through that exercise. I do feel like

Rick (18:40.867)
No.

Tyler King (19:00.339)
Probably a lot of people are dusting off that playbook a little bit and being like, okay, I've already got the plan. I just like, let's actually run it this time.

Rick (19:07.025)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, the difference is like the economy in that situation was highly propped up by subsidization. And I don't see that happening under this administration. Yeah.

Tyler King (19:17.611)
Well, it was after two months, but it wasn't at first. Like it took them a little while. Like the PPP money was to me, the first wave of that. I was pretty like, I had a whole, I remember I was just looking through it the other day. I have this whole presentation that I gave to the company in like April, 2020 that was like, you know, how bad would it have to get? How, like, how would we lower people's salaries? So we don't have to do layoffs. How bad was the great depression?

Rick (19:26.128)
Mm-hmm.

Rick (19:35.229)
yeah.

Tyler King (19:45.877)
And like, what would that, you know, if that happened now, what would that look like? So you're right that very, very quickly it became clear it'll be okay. But there was a time there where it looked like it would.

Rick (19:57.686)
And you don't feel that way this time? Are you dusting off that PowerPoint and updating it, or are you?

Tyler King (20:02.173)
no, yes and no. The thing about this time is, yeah, sorry. I think everyone's celebrating after yesterday because the tariffs were rolled back, but there's still, if the first announcement had been 10 % tariffs across the board and that's it, that would have been enough to send us into a recession, I think. He did something much worse than that and then rolled back to 10%. Everyone's acting like.

nothing bad happened now. Anyway, I absolutely think it's going to be bad. It just will be more chaotic and like with the pandemic, the layoffs happened immediately. I don't that hasn't happened yet. Right. I think it'll just be more of a slow, which is how 2008 worked that way too. Right. It was a much, I know we, there was like one or two days where the stock market really crashed. But if you look at it, there were, there was a year

Rick (20:48.774)
Yep.

Tyler King (20:56.895)
leading up to that of like problems before the real crash happened.

Rick (21:00.369)
And then there were second order effects for a while after that too. Yeah, I wish I knew more. At the end of the day, the way I'm gonna do with this for me is I'm gonna say, what does this mean for health benefits? That's the question I'm asking. And what does it mean for health benefits for specifically Utah and Texas employers? And then it's like, okay, if I answer that question, and then what does it mean for how health can help? Then this is a very quick thing.

You've created some urgency for me on this recording, so I'm gonna try to get this done today.

Tyler King (21:38.967)
Yeah, alright, well.

Rick (21:39.515)
But do you agree that there's a content marketing opportunity when there's economic uncertainty?

Tyler King (21:43.026)
yeah!

Yes, absolutely. So uncertainty is one thing. Uncertainty is bad by itself, right? Because if you're a startup and you're about to hire a bunch of people, you're probably like, well, let's just pause that. But even worse than uncertainty, though, it actually is bad and you're certain about it, there's still opportunity there. Anytime a bad thing happens, most people will lose, but some people will win. And yeah, no question, I think there's an opportunity here.

Rick (22:11.781)
Do you think it's true for every business?

Tyler King (22:14.379)
Yeah, probably like in most businesses, the hardest thing about getting new customers, especially if you're selling to businesses, B2B, it's change, right? People come to me all the time trying to sell me stuff that I look at it. I'm like, actually that's like, for example, a new hosting thing comes out every month that is probably better than our AWS hosting setup. But it's like, but that's not my biggest problem. We already have it, it's working. It's not cheap, but it's cheap enough.

Rick (22:22.736)
Mm.

Tyler King (22:42.367)
Why would I spend my time thinking about this right now? What this creates is it creates a change moment where everyone's going to be much more receptive to the idea of change when they wouldn't have been a month ago.

Rick (22:51.057)
If you can help me save money or you can help me make more money for the same amount of cost like in this type of situation I'm much more open to that than focusing on what like the highest leverage thing is but Excuse me. We talked about leverage versus optimization sometimes in times of economic uncertainty Optimization becomes much more front front and center You get you want to squeeze more of the juice?

Tyler King (23:02.818)
Yeah.

Tyler King (23:12.205)
Yeah, well, and specifically, and fear minimization, like there's a rational, how do I save money? But I think there's also a fear minimization thing of like, I don't want to look like I was sitting on my hands while everything crumbled around me. And even just switching from one insurance agency to another, even if there's not, you're still buying the same insurance policy, how is it really gonna matter? I do think people wanna feel like they did something.

Rick (23:36.505)
Yeah, they want to feel like they don't want to regret not acting. so you could pray on that. That's interesting. Don't regret keeping your group health insurance plan for another year.

Tyler King (23:48.427)
Yeah, get a picture of like a sad employee making puppy dog eyes and like, they're counting on you.

Have some Sarah McLaughlin playing in the background. I think it could work.

Rick (24:01.489)
I can't believe you know who that is.

Tyler King (24:03.905)
Well, cause she does the sad animal commercials, right?

Rick (24:07.313)
Oh, that's true. That's true. is. Well, she I mean, that's the kind of music I like, Tyler. I don't know if you knew that. Yeah, that's that's that's what I have in the background all day is pretty much any woman with a pretty voice and some acoustic. It's all me. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, occasional heavy metal mixes in. Oh, oh, that's reminds me, I introduced Oliver to heavy metal.

Tyler King (24:12.361)
I did not know that. What? You're going to Lilith Fair and stuff?

Tyler King (24:26.231)
did not know that.

Tyler King (24:30.485)
Yeah, I knew about that part.

Tyler King (24:37.365)
Yeah? What'd you start with? That's a good little kid metal band, I think.

Rick (24:37.905)
And he was just a system of a down Yeah, yeah, and so we're playing outside so this is on the way to school one day a few days later We're playing outside and all of a sudden right here And Oliver Oliver is like scream singing and I'll go what do you do? He's like, I'm screaming. I'm screaming a song and he did it for like a minute and a half

Tyler King (25:05.357)
I love that

Rick (25:06.705)
So I've created a monster

Tyler King (25:09.901)
Fantastic. I want more updates on that later. All right. You want to talk about the next product development steps?

Rick (25:12.346)
You'd be proud.

Rick (25:21.873)
Yeah, this will be my last sort of leg up health update today. So I because JD is so on top of sales, we had a good a lot of a bit of space to talk about product road mapping, which we often don't spend a lot of time on in our partner meetings. And I thought you helped clarify what our immediate next steps are, which we had. It's Tyler's really interesting at. You know, I think you're really interested, good at.

breaking projects down into these decisions. They're not real decisions necessarily that we have to make, but it helps you prioritize what to build first and where you don't want to compromise on the first architecture. And so you asked a lot of really interesting questions like, is this feature more important than this feature? Or if you could only have one of these, which one would you pick? And I thought it was really interesting to help me and JD get on the same page. And I was actually fairly surprised that we were pretty

aligned on what the features are that we want to build. And so I think it resulted in some pretty clear direction for you on where you should spend time for the immediate term.

Tyler King (26:31.533)
Yeah, I was pretty happy with how that conversation went and surprised because, you know, it's like, there's, don't think we need to go, probably it would not make sense to the listener to get into every little detail. Yeah. There's like, okay, we have a software platform that we're selling to employee employers, but the reality is it doesn't do anything right now. It's like add your employees and then JD will just call them and provide service to them, but they're not, he's not using the software platform to do anything for them really. And so the next, the

Rick (26:56.015)
Yeah, it's very much a tool for JD and Legap to service more so than a tool for the employer or the employee.

Tyler King (27:01.675)
Yeah. Yeah. And so the question is like, how do we start gradually adding more features to this so that the employer and the employee actually have a reason to log in and perceive? Cause a thing where this is so different from a typical SaaS business is the main value they're getting is the insurance, but we don't have it, which is great in a sense. It's like, we don't have to do anything. There's no downtime. There are no servers to maintain, but the downside is we can't differentiate on that. So we kind of need the customer.

to perceive value coming from the software and not just the insurance that's being offered, right? So yeah, going through all the list of what are all the ways we can add value through the software was fun. And I was really surprised where we came out. And I was pretty happy because I think what you both said was the easiest thing, or the most impactful thing is also the easiest thing to build. I didn't really get into that.

Rick (27:34.235)
Yep, yep.

Rick (27:52.055)
awesome. I love it when that happens. Yeah. Yeah.

Tyler King (27:55.648)
In the meeting, wasn't like, great, that's the easy thing, but that's what I was thinking.

Rick (27:59.537)
That's awesome. And I think like one thing that JD is doing that I think also makes it more interesting to develop product around is he's pre-selling and doing things in spreadsheets and manually. And that makes it a lot easier to go, yeah, I can get some motivation to build that. You've got some validation outside of Rick just saying, this is good idea. Yeah.

Tyler King (28:20.717)
Can I make a note on that? Because the bootstrapper world, which you don't follow as closely as I do, there's a ton of people out there saying to pre-sell stuff. And most of how I interpret what people are saying is like, you go pitch the vision to somebody, you don't have anything to show for it, you don't have anything to offer them. And you're like, if you really want this, give me $1,000 right now. And if enough people give me $1,000, I'll go build it. People have done that successfully in the past. You and I have talked about this before, and I think we both agree.

That is very, very hard to do.

Rick (28:52.247)
yeah, like, and then it's high risk.

Tyler King (28:55.125)
Yeah, well, sorry, what I mean is like getting the sale. very few customers will pay. Yeah.

Rick (28:58.321)
It's not only is it hard to do, it's very hard to do and then it's very hard to deliver. Both like, like all of it's hard.

Tyler King (29:03.585)
Yeah, what JD's doing here is a better version of pre-selling, I think, which it's not saying, hey, can you pay me for a thing that doesn't exist? It's, hey, can you pay me for a thing that I'm going to do manually for a while through a spreadsheet? And then we're gonna automate it at some point. But he's actually selling a real thing from day one, as opposed to just hoping someone will pay for vapor.

Rick (29:29.393)
Exactly and he's doing it. He's doing a little bit more nuanced than that. He's not saying we're gonna automate it later. He's saying this is the product Will you buy this product? And he doesn't say we're gonna make it better He's saying like will you buy the product as it is today and if they'll buy the product as it is today when it's an inferior version of what I know Tyler can build like That is a very good thing to know because then as we had bells and whistles not only do we free up JD's time from a

Tyler King (29:35.585)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler King (29:40.557)
Sure.

Rick (29:57.699)
a service delivery perspective, but we also make the product better and we have more confidence that people will buy it.

Tyler King (30:03.521)
Yeah. which, and it makes sense. Why would the customer care who, like whether a human is doing the work behind the scenes or it's, it's automated. Yeah. This probably only works with like a productized service business. Like I doubt you could do this with peer SAS. or like a CRM or product management project management tool couldn't work this way, but, any kind of productized service, I do think you just start with the peer service.

Rick (30:12.845)
Exactly. Exactly.

Tyler King (30:30.465)
but you wrap it in product, right? You say, instead of you just emailing me, fill out this Google form. And then that emails me or make it feel a little more like the product so that you have these entry points where you can just plug in, okay, now that when they fill out this form, okay, now I'm gonna build something with Zapier to do a no code thing, but I'm still gonna do a lot of work behind the scenes. And then I'm gonna take that and I'm gonna put it in an air table and it's gonna get a little closer automated. Then I'm gonna actually code up this part of it and you can just gradually without the customer even realizing what's happening, turn it into a product.

Rick (30:59.281)
Totally, and just so you're aware, Tyler, and I think you knew this, the current version of the employer platform was a spreadsheet before we built the current version, right? It was multiple customers using a spreadsheet to manage their employee roster. And all we did was say, oh, let's give an employer the ability to do that via LEGO benefits. And now it's not in a spreadsheet anymore.

Tyler King (31:06.965)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tyler King (31:16.993)
Yeah. Let me give one specific example of this just to make this more real for the listener. So one of the things, so basically the employer's gonna use leg up benefits to create plan. Sorry, what's the term for it again? Benefits plans, benefit programs. For employees, employers, basically these benefit programs are like, you can reimburse your employees for certain things. Each benefit program needs plan documents.

Rick (31:32.251)
benefit programs.

Tyler King (31:46.232)
Are they still called plan documents? That's what we called them 20 years ago. Program documents. Okay. So yeah, like right now I'm going to build into the software. JD is going to go generate these documents manually in Google docs. Give me a link to each one and, or, or I'm going to let him put the link in to the software. So it's going to look like the software generated all of these things automatically. And then sometime in the distant future we'll actually let.

Rick (31:48.184)
We'll call them program documents, but yep.

Tyler King (32:12.257)
like get the settings for the program into the software and they will generate the documents automatically. Yeah.

Rick (32:18.277)
Yep, it's a great example. But like, let's get some customers using the product first before we invest in that.

Tyler King (32:23.437)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, cool. So hopefully during my parental leave, I'll get some of that built and we'll have some stuff to talk about. Okay. I want to ramble about something. I have no idea where this is going to go. I don't know if I can, like, I have not said this out loud to enough people to know if I can even communicate this clearly yet, but okay. So.

Brack and I have been talking about long-term product strategy a little bit more, because we're actually building stuff fast enough that it's like, have probably another year before we've hit the end of our current plan. We're not talking about pivoting from our current plan. Our current plan is good, but the question is, well, what do we do at the end of that year? What do we build next?

Rick (33:06.223)
Our current and the current plan are you referring to your roadmap or are talking about the strategy of of of like your van features? Your. OK.

Tyler King (33:09.42)
Yeah.

Tyler King (33:13.673)
More the strategy, but both. So as a reminder, CarPlay is the shorthand we use for the feed that basically there's a feature gap between us and our competitors. A lot of customers come to us, evaluate us. They love our price. They love our customer service. They like the simplicity of the product, but we're just missing core features such as a mobile app, the ability to send email and a Kanban board. We need to close that feature gap. And the hope is we can then start getting, winning more of these customers. We know

So those three things I just named plus automations, four things, we need to build those things. When we're done building those things, the question is, are we still in carplay mode where it's like, okay, those were the four, the most important four things, but there's another 20 things after that. We just need to keep closing the feature gap. Or is it like what we were in the beginning in 2012,

when growth was really easy back then, we didn't have all the features our competitors had. We don't need to have all of them. We just need to have enough that a critical mass of customers think we have enough. And at that point, the way we improve the business is not adding more and more more features. It's something else. the main fork in the road we're hitting is once we've built these four really important CarPlay features, do we keep going after CarPlay or do we find something else? Does that make sense?

Rick (34:35.153)
Okay, yep.

Tyler King (34:36.907)
Okay, any initial reactions before I say more?

Rick (34:39.503)
makes sense that you're debating your strategy, your next strategic inflection point. And it's cool that you are doing this a year in advance. Like that's you know, awesome. Like I don't think a lot of people have the space and time to get that far ahead of this, especially at your size.

Tyler King (34:54.027)
Yeah. Yeah, I like it. I actually think in the past, we made the mistake of doing too much of this and thinking five years in advance instead of one. I think you could get in trouble with that, but I'm hoping one, I'm hoping this is the right level of it. So we had the conversation, well, which of these will make sense? Do we need more features after these four? The thing that's happened to us a million times in the past is we're working on like one really big feature. And we're like, once this is done, this is like the last really big thing we need.

And then you get there and it is big and it's good and people like it, but then like almost immediately it's like, no, there's five other things. Now that people aren't asking for that, people are asking for other stuff. We won't know if that happens until we build these features. We won't know if it's like, oh no, we're missing a bunch of other stuff, right? And even worse, if this whole strategy works, I think there's gonna be a big lagging. think like building these features, it's not like we ship the feature and then.

the next day our growth takes off, I think there's gonna be a year or two of like maybe our conversion rates improve a little, our retention improves a little, our word of mouth improves a little. It's gonna take a while for all these things to actually work if they do in fact work. So one of the really hard things about this is gonna be like, we build these four things, we won't know whether it worked or not right away.

Rick (36:13.317)
Well, how are you guys framing this conversation with each other?

Tyler King (36:17.271)
What do mean?

Rick (36:17.989)
Like, what are you deciding between?

Tyler King (36:22.157)
We're deciding between, well, one fork in the road is keep doing, or maybe you could argue it's going straight, is keep doing more CarPlay features. Like what's the next one? And it could be better reporting. Let's use that as the fifth CarPlay feature that I think there's a big gap between four and five, but there's more features that our competitors have that we don't have. Bulky mailing being another. Okay. Or we turn and we say,

Rick (36:31.717)
Okay, okay, all right.

Rick (36:42.513)
Got it, got it.

Tyler King (36:50.411)
we have enough features, now how do we strengthen our position as the simple CRM that doesn't have every feature but it has the ones you need, what would that look like? And so that's one of the things I wanna talk about in a second is like, we know what the key building car plays looks like, we don't as much know what the other one looks like. Does that answer your question?

Rick (37:09.553)
Have you made progress on that? Like getting more meat to what the second path could be?

Tyler King (37:15.341)
Yeah, yeah. Okay. So yeah, let's talk about that. And then if we have time, can loop back to the, which one should we do? And let me just like, we would rather not keep building CarPlay features forever. Right? So like, if we can get away with it, if the business is good enough, we would rather start doing other stuff. What would that other stuff be? Well, I'm curious from you, I realize you're not like super keyed into the product side of our business, but like, if you're, if I'm saying, okay, we want to be the CRM.

that's like, don't have a million features, but we have enough for enough people. How do you improve the business through product once you've already achieved that enough features thing?

Rick (37:53.681)
Well, I mean, what I would say is you need to build a different business, another business or another product to serve a different need that's adjacent to what you're currently servicing. That's kind of where I go first. So I would go like, OK, who are your existing customers? What adjacent problems do they have that are are you you could play a similar, you know, value proposition role and simplifying cheaper, high customer service. And I think we've had this conversation before, but like

I don't know what those adjacent products are if you've done those research.

Tyler King (38:27.767)
Do you think forms, the thing we already built, sort of fits that or is that a different thing?

Rick (38:32.881)
Well, I had the benefit of seeing the title of this card. so where I'm being biased towards is the difference between CRM and marketing automation. historically, back in the day, those were two separate tools that didn't talk to each other very well. Now they're very well integrated with each other. If you think of marketing automation, you probably think of HubSpot, Marketo, Pardo, Pardot. However you say that stupid name.

Tyler King (38:37.453)
Right.

Rick (39:02.093)
And then, you know, you think of CRM, you think of Salesforce, less annoying CRM, Pipe Drive, et cetera. But what you're noticing, if you actually go look at any of these tools, HubSpot has a CRM now built into its marketing automation platform. Salesforce bought Pardot. So they have Pardot built in. If you go look at Pipe Drive, they've got most of the marketing automation features. And I would put forms, email marketing, website hosting, or landing page hosting.

I'd put that all in the marketing automation sort of product bucket more so than a CRM bucket. Although I just want to acknowledge that this is being heavily blurred right now in terms of all in one packages.

Tyler King (39:42.646)
Yeah. Great. And yeah, I, when I made this card for, for the listener, the card is called sales CRM versus marketing CRM, which is what Rick's hinting at here. I, yeah, I figured it would give it away, but I also thought I wouldn't remember what I wanted to talk about if I didn't write it that way. no, yeah, what you just said is exactly where this conversation with me and Bracken went. HubSpot is probably our biggest competitor. We've been thinking of HubSpot as our biggest competitor. What I mean by that is that they're eating up the most market share.

Rick (39:55.697)
Yeah.

Tyler King (40:11.861)
Not necessarily that they're the one getting the most customers, but they're growing their market share more than, like Pipe Drive is what it is. Insightly is what it is. Salesforce is what it is. HubSpot's kind of coming in and eating up more of the market share.

Rick (40:23.666)
They're giving their product away to the lower end of the market. They're being very intentional about that.

Tyler King (40:29.825)
Yeah, one reason why economic uncertainty, you know, I'm mostly bummed about it, but one reason I'm happy is like, that's the situation where companies stop giving away things for free. So we've been looking at this and saying, well, okay, of course we've got to compete with HubSpot then. And what do they do? They've got like email marketing, hosting websites and tracking analytics and all that. More and more though, so sorry, Brack and I have been regretting.

Rick (40:40.752)
Yeah.

Tyler King (40:58.539)
the fact that we both thought adding all that marketing stuff is essential. And that's to me what the carplay path means is saying, okay, we caught up on Kanban on mobile, et cetera. The big feature gap now is the marketing stuff. And so if we take this, like we have to close the feature gap with our competitors, that's probably the direction it goes in. The question is, is that necessary? And I've, so I'm about to give the optimistic take. I realize this might be,

me deluding myself and this isn't realistic, but more and more I've been seeing other CRMs describing, including like Pipe Drive. I know you said they have some marketing features, but they describe themselves as a sales CRM. I've been seeing that more and more and every time I saw it, was like, well, what the fuck, every CRM is a sales CRM. What are you talking about? And I'm starting to think, well, they're trying to separate themselves from the hub spots of the world to say, we're not, that's fine. Some companies do need that really marketing heavy touch.

But PipeDrive, like, okay, maybe you need to send an email blast out to a few hundred people, but you're not using PipeDrive to set up like sophisticated, you know, marketing automations. And it gave me a little bit of hope that there's a path forward to say there are still a lot of businesses that are fundamentally one-to-one. You could call it sales or, you know, nonprofits work this way. A lot of organizations, they're not just sales, but it's a one-to-one high touch.

process as opposed to a everything is totally automated and scalable type of process. And can we just say we're only serving those people that aren't doing the scalable automated side of things.

Rick (42:40.591)
Yep.

Tyler King (42:43.085)
You think that market exists and is big enough and is possible to target?

Rick (42:47.117)
Well, I mean, I just I just want to throw an asterisk on the pipe drive comment. Yes, there may be experimenting with positioning themselves as for sales, you know, but they do have marketing features that you can add on for additional fees. they're like they might be like leading with what you're saying, but they're not like dying by it. They have, you know, campaigns, they have lead boosting, which it's forms basically with chat bots and scheduling. They have website visitor tracking. They've got.

email marketing. And so I just, I don't, I haven't heard anything that makes me feel confident that you can, that you would want to bet on that being true, that you can win without those features. You might be able to, but so, yeah.

Tyler King (43:37.451)
Well, but what they have is nothing compared to HubSpot. Like you can send an email blast with PipeDrive, which we will probably be able to support. That's very different from like, let's set up a, when someone clicks this, we want to automatically do that. And then we want to pull in this data and have this logic going on.

Rick (43:55.769)
Yeah, so let's kind of use me as an example. Pipe drives marketing features do not work for me. So what did I do? I added HubSpot, I connected to Pipe Drive, JD uses Pipe Drive, I use HubSpot for the marketing functionality. It's fine, HubSpot's our marketing automation platform, Pipe Drive is our CRM. What's the risk to Pipe Drive? Well, at some point we might say, let's save some money on Pipe Drive, let's just use HubSpot CRM. That's the risk, right? Because they're gonna lose on marketing.

Tyler King (44:22.231)
Yeah, yeah, and all in one type of thing.

Rick (44:25.079)
Exactly. like, but like, let's say that I'm more of a sales driven company and I don't have my, my marketing capabilities. I probably would just be just fine on the pipe drive stuff. But if PipeDrive didn't have any marketing stuff, I would still connect HubSpot or some other tool. And then I would risk being, I think someone that I'm gonna hire a marketing consultant. They're gonna say, you need to have forums that like load up your pipe drive. I know you already have this feature. They're gonna start asking, like someone's gonna say you need to

Tyler King (44:41.685)
You would.

Rick (44:54.149)
build the stuff that connects to your CRM. If PipeDrive can't support that, it's the wrong CRM for you.

Tyler King (45:00.173)
Yeah, certainly you would. None of our customers are hiring marketing consultants. They don't even have websites, right? They don't need website tracking because they have no website. But, sorry, I don't mean to sound combative here though. Like we already have this little niche of people that don't have websites and it's either not big enough of a niche or we're not appealing to them. Either we need to target a bigger niche or...

Rick (45:04.525)
Okay. Okay.

Okay.

Tyler King (45:27.585)
we need to win more of the people within that niche. Like I think it's the second. I think the niche is plenty big enough. It's that when they look at us and they're like, well, okay, but I don't care about marketing automation, but I do care about a Kanban board and a mobile app. That's the crux of the question here is like, are we targeting the right people already? We just need a few more features to start winning them. The way we did, we've already done this in the past. I was looking back at our numbers.

If we could be grown like we were in 2015, we'd be golden. I don't need more than that. We just need to get back to

Rick (46:00.997)
What, what, do you know why you're losing people?

Tyler King (46:05.645)
Yeah, well, most people don't say. Yeah, there's kind of three categories of this. Well, I think it'll end up being three by the time I finish talking. So yeah, one is we're losing them to another CRM. One is we're losing them to non-consumption. I guess those are the two big ones.

Rick (46:06.799)
And who you're losing them to.

Rick (46:25.691)
The non-consumption one is not the one to worry about. It's the other CRM ones. So can you break that with the other CRM ones?

Tyler King (46:28.597)
Right, right. It's the other ship.

Yeah, sometimes they, so most, okay, sorry. When I said three, was trying to remember what's the third one. I, the third one's a subset of that, which is there's, I'm going to pipe driver and slightly or HubSpot that type of thing. Or there's I'm going to like some super industry specific thing that like there are a million of them out there. I've never heard of them ever. Like each one gets one person cancels cause they're going to this one. And then one person cancels cause they're going to that one. So I think there's kind of like.

the market of general purpose CRMs and then the market of very specialized CRMs and we lose to both of those. There's also like a lot of people when they cancel, they don't say what they're going to, but they say what features we lack. And when they say what features we lack, mostly they say mobile app and Kanban right now.

Rick (47:26.673)
So basically, you're gonna solve both of those problems.

Tyler King (47:26.859)
Yeah.

Tyler King (47:30.158)
We're gonna solve both those and then automations and email sending or two other big ones that people say, if our conversion rate from free to trial to paid could go from 20 % to 25%, like we're good. But will these features do that is a big question. So again, we won't know, we won't know. So that's one of the reasons it's gonna be so hard is we're gonna do these things and then we're gonna have to decide what to do next without knowing yet if what we already did quote unquote worked.

Rick (47:48.401)
Mm-hmm.

Rick (48:00.049)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler King (48:00.423)
one of the, where that led us was like, how much time do we have? And if we're the last couple months we've grown, like call it 50 users per month. If we're growing at that rate, we've got 10 years to figure this out. And if we have 10 years to figure this out, I think we're going to be optimistic and say, like, let's hope this is enough. Not like we're going to take our foot off the gas, but let's make this an even better product for the people that it's already great for and try to really dominate this. If we're not growing at that rate, I think we need to keep.

doing the stuff we don't wanna do to expand to a bigger.

Rick (48:33.553)
Thanks for letting me digest this. I think I can add some value now. So I think this is a really interesting problem. You're thinking about something, what to do in a year based on the results of where you end up in a year, which gets really hard. So I think this is the type of situation where you have to have multiple plans. And so one plan, I think you need to have a plan where you absolutely continue down this path and you just need to continue to develop that plan as the default plan.

Tyler King (48:53.549)
Yeah, that's true.

Rick (49:03.221)
And so, you you expand the roadmap past the year. What would you do for another year into this play? And then you start developing a kind of like, I don't know, it's kind of like time travel, you know, like what are the, you know, when you change the future, like what are the different paths? Exactly. So I would start treing this a little bit and saying, you know, what are the different paths? And then I would probably bake at least one other plan just for fun that you feel good about.

Tyler King (49:18.645)
Right. The everything everywhere all at once, like tree of options. Yeah.

Rick (49:33.297)
And then I would probably you know revisit this on some other cadence But like I would I would I would time constrain this but like to me like a good outcome of this discussion with you and Bracken is You have a solid stay the course plan That extends a couple another year and then you have some conviction around what based on what you know today here's the the the alternative path the best alternative path and then you you

meet more right, like you do this quarterly and you refine or you build, you say that's not the right path anymore, let's build another alternative path. And eventually you're gonna meet and say, it's time to go down that alternative path. To me, that feels like the right sort of framework for this.

Tyler King (50:15.969)
Yeah, I like that a lot. Yes, I like that a lot. will use that. The stay the course path is simple, I think, in the sense that it's just like each time you finish a feature, you figure out the next feature is it's the feature people are telling you about. It doesn't require a lot of brainstorming and stuff like that. So with the framework you just gave, I can now say more concisely, what we're working on right now is the alternative path. What would the alternative path look like?

because that requires a little more, you know, quote unquote innovation or taste or vision, whatever you want to call it. Like, because it's not just while customers are knocking on our door and saying they want this feature.

Rick (50:56.197)
Yeah. So do you have like thoughts on what that alternate path is right now? Like it's unclear to me what that what you're considering.

Tyler King (51:00.085)
Yeah. Right. So this is, I expected that my preamble would take up the full amount of time here, but this is the meat that I kind of want to get into, which is that sales serum versus marketing serum thing is we really don't want to be in the marketing game if we can avoid it. If we have to, we have to, but if we can avoid it, we'd like to. like thinking more deeply about the actual workflows of people doing these one-on-one things and making that better, just to throw out.

Rick (51:05.585)
Yeah.

Tyler King (51:28.213)
I don't have a, it's still very fuzzy for me, but things like instead of adding bulk emailing, add a phone, like a dialer, right? That's just one example, but I think that really well highlights the one type of person needs to make calls and another type of person needs to send out a thousand emails at once. Getting our workflows a lot more like efficient where it's like, you can do the whole thing with a few clicks instead of like, well, I got to go over to the contact and do this and I got to go to the pipeline and do that.

and then I need to go check off the task. I think that's the general direction I would be excited about if there's meat on that bone.

Rick (52:06.417)
That's the sales, like take the sales persona and user and make their job more automated.

Tyler King (52:12.781)
Yeah, exactly. I would need to like do some user research and stuff. I don't know what they need, but like stuff like that.

Rick (52:15.408)
Yeah.

That's interesting. I think one way to kind of figure this out is to think about who your ideal persona is in addition to your ideal customer. it a sales user that if you could make more Iron Man salesperson superhero, then that's a... you include all... Is the strategy the same? All for one low price? The problem with...

Tyler King (52:23.895)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler King (52:43.627)
Yeah, ideally. With not with phone, probably.

Rick (52:47.203)
Yeah, phone phone gets into usage based billing. So it's like you'd probably have to have something else there. the yeah, that's interesting. It's like no longer are we just like kind of carte blanche, like all the things like just good enough. You're going like we're really, really good. If not the best for this person at this time. Yeah.

Tyler King (52:49.739)
Yeah, that one would probably be different.

Tyler King (52:56.438)
Yeah, you-

Tyler King (53:05.473)
this type of thing. Yeah, which I have in my notes on this card, but every time I do this, I write notes on the card, but then we're recording live and I just start talking and I don't take the time to read anything. This was one of the key things I realized during this exercise is what you just said. If you asked me, where is less annoying serum positioned? I've had the spiel for years. It's price, simplicity, and support. That's why people like us. What's missing from that is, well, who are they? Who's the person?

And it occurred to me, it's been years, like we say, we're for small businesses, but we're not for every small business, obviously. I don't have a good concise explanation of exactly, we're for 20 different industries. What do they have in common? What is the common thread that all of our customers have? I need to be able to answer that question.

Rick (53:49.755)
Who are they? Who's the buyer? Who are the users? What do they have in common at the same company, across companies? I totally agree with that. That would be very interesting to be able to segment your user base by who you believe they are as a persona and then go, what are we missing for that person, that persona? That's very interesting. I think that would be a very interesting exercise.

Tyler King (54:08.065)
Right, right.

So yeah, we've got a year before it matters, that, so.

Rick (54:14.481)
And then being able to identify that in the sales process, pardon me, that would be hugely helpful to be able to direct them to the features that matter to them and also know why you're losing people versus like.

Tyler King (54:18.752)
Right, yeah.

Tyler King (54:25.889)
Well, in our homepage, like I think we have good positioning now again, cause we say price, simplicity, support here. Here's why you should use us, but we don't have here's who you are. Like that would make it hit so much harder if it's like all these other CRMs are for different types of people. You're this type of person and we're for you. We don't say that right now. So yeah, I'm excited about this. Thank you. know we got to call it here, but what you gave me language. don't think you, this conversation didn't.

help me get the answer, but it helps me ask the question. The question is, okay, there's stay the course or find an alternative path. We're trying to discuss what that alternative path is. In order to do that, we need to figure out at least one key persona from our current customers so we can understand what they specifically need for their workflows. Yeah, I like that a lot. Cool.

Rick (55:09.467)
Yep, that's great. If you'd like to review past topics and show notes, visit startuptolast.com. See you next time.

Tyler King (55:16.984)
See ya.