Rick (00:01.199)
What's up, Tyler?

Tyler King (00:02.7)
Not a whole lot. I got my Dr. Pepper. I'm living large. What's going on with you? yes, I drink a seven and a half ounce mini Dr. Pepper pretty much every morning in lieu of coffee because coffee is gross and soda is delicious.

Rick (00:06.879)
Yeah, is that a mini Dr. Pepper?

Rick (00:18.181)
coffee is the best. Have I told you about my coffee machine?

Tyler King (00:22.882)
don't think so.

Rick (00:24.613)
I a very nice coffee machine when we moved and it basically makes the perfect cup of coffee. grinds, you put beans in the top, it grinds them and it makes the perfect cup of drip coffee. There's Terra Cafe, whatever their second version is, very, very pleased with it. I mean, I wish I didn't have to clean it as much, but you know, I have to.

Tyler King (00:38.594)
You wanna give a shout out to a brand here so that our.

Tyler King (00:47.054)
This is what concerns me about all beverage machines. It's way too easy for there to be mold and stuff going on.

Rick (00:57.573)
Yep, I probably should do a little bit better job of cleaning it in hindsight, but it tastes good.

Tyler King (00:58.541)
Yeah.

Anytime you talk to someone who works in a restaurant that has a soda fountain or anything like that, they're like, don't touch any liquid that comes out of one of those machines. I ignore them because who wants to live that life? But they say it's very gross.

Rick (01:16.613)
haha

Tyler King (01:18.766)
What's going on in the business world?

Rick (01:22.255)
Well, I personally, I don't I don't know if you still listen to podcasts or not, but I had taken a break from regularly tuning in. for since the last episode we recorded, I've listened to probably 10 episodes of podcasts during my commute and are on walks. And I don't know what I don't know if Apple updated its notification system or started notifying me that I had podcasts. I have no idea what triggered it, but I'm back.

back into the podcast and I'm loving it.

Tyler King (01:53.858)
Which ones are you listening to?

Rick (01:55.949)
I listened to an IndieHackers podcast. listened to a Knowledge Project podcast. I didn't realize this, but the Netflix founder, Reed Hastings, bought Powder Mountain.

Tyler King (02:07.426)
Yeah, I heard about that. And he's turning it into a weird billionaire haven, right? At one point, the plan was to like, make it a private club, like a country club ski resort, I think.

Rick (02:11.044)
I don't know about that, but but.

Rick (02:18.94)
What he talked about on the podcast was that because Icon and Epic, which are the two big passes by the large, large, large multinational corporations, that if Powder Mountain wants to survive, they either have to join them or like extremely counter position. And so I think I think he's trying to figure out or they're trying to figure out what the counter position is to

$800 all you can eat ski pass. you know, and I, and maybe it is, the country club of skiing. don't know.

Tyler King (02:55.884)
I could be remembering a different story. remember one of those kind of non top tier Utah resorts was this was happening. Did you watch Mountain Head on Netflix? It kind of sucked, it was from the guy that, no, it on HBO. The guy that made Succession. It's these billionaires going to this like super rich, like luxury house in the Utah mountains and just.

Rick (03:06.944)
No, what's that?

Tyler King (03:22.51)
It's just them hanging out and being douchebags for two hours, it's a terrible in some ways, but I do think it's kind of entertaining. It's a movie.

Rick (03:30.712)
Is it a movie or a show?

Sounds like something we should do.

Tyler King (03:36.756)
Well, if you watch it, they like decide to overthrow all the governments on earth at one point in it. It's very weird, but... And they try to kill one of the people there. Spoiler, sorry. They don't, they don't... Well, I should not... I don't know who's watching it. Anyway, okay.

Rick (03:41.208)
Okay.

no. Let's not do that. Yeah, let's not do that.

Rick (03:55.493)
But on podcasts, the diversity of shows you can listen to, can get bored with it, you can go to the next one. I need to like recreate my podcast subscription list so that I have more to choose from. But I have enjoyed it and I think I'll continue.

Tyler King (04:08.845)
Yeah.

Tyler King (04:12.536)
Yeah, that's great. I am, I still listen to podcasts pretty regularly, but it used to be, I listened to almost entirely to podcasts like this, you know, two or three people, like founders talking to each other. Almost all of those have stopped being made. I had like a smattering of kind of news or politics or whatever that I, that was just the minority, but now all the other ones are gone. So almost everything I listened to is what I don't want this to be true, but it's just like pivot, like, like tech news type stuff that I

I like a little bit of it, I don't want that to be my main thing. So I probably need to find some new podcasts.

Rick (04:48.898)
Yeah, it's interesting. The podcast I listened to, the IndieHackers one, happened to be about content creation and there was a segment within it about podcasts. what it sounds like, what they were reflecting on is, Cortland at IndieHackers is actually taking a new approach with the podcast to make it more like this type of podcast, much more informal, less preparation, more genuine, less scripted.

that's apparently more entertaining for the listener. And so they talked a lot about like My First Million and other new, like people say, go listen to this podcast, you'll learn a lot, but what people are actually listening to podcasts for is to be entertained.

Tyler King (05:37.838)
Sorry, the last IndieHackers podcast was published June 15th, 2023. Does it have a different name now or did you listen to a two-year-old podcast and think it was new?

Rick (05:43.652)
I think your feed's broken.

Rick (05:49.294)
Probably a two year old podcast I thought was new.

Tyler King (05:50.702)
Because I was like I thought I subscribed to that but I haven't seen any new ones in a long time I Think he just stopped doing it or maybe he has a different podcast under a different name. I don't know

Rick (05:54.722)
Wait, did he just like turn it off?

Rick (06:02.254)
Well, that is embarrassing because I was pretty sure they recorded it like in June this year, but maybe it was June three years ago.

Tyler King (06:05.518)
you

Tyler King (06:11.158)
I love that, well, guess that new content strategy didn't work out.

Rick (06:14.596)
Well, that shows you how much of a what's it called a leadite when you're like out of the tech like they were talking about stuff that I'm like super interested right now in terms of technology. They're talking. Yeah, I was like, oh yeah, this is my great of my alley. guess I'm two years behind. Wow, yeah, OK, OK, it was a year ago. Come on now.

Tyler King (06:18.082)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler King (06:22.414)
They're like, have you heard of this chat GPT thing?

Tyler King (06:29.697)
You

Tyler King (06:37.23)
I'm looking at the June 20, 2023 is what I'm seeing.

Rick (06:42.99)
What?

Tyler King (06:45.42)
with Lucas making 8k a month? Anyway. But okay, you're listening to I mean, it should be the case that a good podcast episode doesn't age so poorly that it's worthless to listen to two years later, hopefully.

Rick (06:45.554)
my God.

Rick (06:51.908)
Well now I'm embarrassed.

Rick (07:00.612)
I think the point is the same though. Yeah, you're right. was June, 2023. Holy cow.

Tyler King (07:03.116)
No you-

That's I'm saying. If you're listening to breaking news, you don't want to listen to that two years later. But I bet an episode of Startup to Last is not meaningfully worse a couple of years later than when it's recorded, hopefully.

Rick (07:18.673)
It doesn't have far to fall, my friend.

Tyler King (07:22.446)
true. We lose like one listener every week. We're trending towards zero. Probably because of riveting conversations like this.

Rick (07:25.964)
Yeah.

Well, I feel like the way that we got listeners was us on Twitter and Twitter went away.

Tyler King (07:37.344)
No, no, it was never to it. was, it was from IndieHackers. Remember we joined their podcast network and we got this big surge and then that was like four or five years ago or something. And then we've just gradually been declining since then.

Rick (07:40.066)
It was from IndieHackers. that's right.

Rick (07:53.007)
So the funniest thing that I've done this week is I listened to a 2023 podcast, thought it was as of this week and actually like was interested in the technological conversations they were having. That is sad.

Tyler King (08:07.627)
Sorry to call you out there, Rick.

Rick (08:08.868)
Appreciate it. it. Anyway, it still stands true. I'm gonna listen to more podcasts. It's great. Apparently they're all dying. I had no idea.

Tyler King (08:17.496)
Just this type, this type is dying. Cool, what's going on with PlayGup Health?

Rick (08:23.286)
Well, I just, don't know if I told you this last time, but we had a record revenue month in May and I just wanted to call that out. base goal is to get a 20 K per month in revenue. We just scratched the bottom of like 19 K. and so we're really, really close and we have pipe. Our existing pipeline will get us there. Assuming we don't have major churn. It's pretty exciting. So.

Tyler King (08:49.538)
Yeah. So what changes? We did talk about this last time, I think, but there's a lot to talk about. Does anything change in the business once 20K gets hit?

Rick (08:57.408)
No, but like we hit our goal and I've never done that before. This is the annual goal. Yeah, well, I mean, our original annual goal was getting to 30K, which is 2Xing. You talked us down to 20K and now we hit the goal and I'm like, this is weird. Well, the funny thing is we didn't.

Tyler King (09:00.012)
Yeah. This is the annual goal or... okay. Yeah, yeah. That's pretty good, given that it's June.

Tyler King (09:13.166)
Yeah, and then I talked you down. then now, guess it should have been 30 K. Okay.

Rick (09:22.66)
We kind of split the difference. said, oh yeah, our base goal is 20K, but our stretch goal is 30K. So we've hit the base goal, meaning that we have excess budget now to spend, which is weird. It's actually a great way to be, like we have buffer. And so there's lots of paths to 30K now.

Tyler King (09:27.98)
Yeah.

Tyler King (09:39.934)
It kind of goes to show that goals are pretty meaningless in this type of environment. Not to say you shouldn't have them. Like it's good to shoot for something. I think bigger companies need goals because compensation and promotions and stuff are based on those. Like at a big company, you need a way to say, did this leader do a good job running their part of the company or things like that. With a small startup where basically everyone's a co-founder, it just doesn't serve that role. And so it's just a fun number to look at basically.

Rick (10:09.816)
The only other thing I'd say that's providing value for us is where it is budgeting and excess creating sort of this default alive scenario that everybody's pleased with that is less stressful than it would have been if we had set a more audacious goal or no goal at all. And so I think in this particular case, the 20K goal is providing us relief and stability. The 30K goal.

Tyler King (10:36.984)
Cause if the goal-

Rick (10:38.301)
while the 30K goal provides us that stretch, like, you know, challenging direction.

Tyler King (10:43.63)
If the goal had been 30 from the beginning, you're saying we'd have to hit, we'd say we need to spend more on like lead acquisition or something because we're not going to hit 30 this way. And then we spend all that extra money and then we're saying, well, now we're even less profitable than before and there's even more pressure to hit the goal. Okay. Yeah. So in some ways it, it impacted our behavior. Okay. Fair enough.

Rick (10:46.062)
We would have been stressed.

Rick (11:03.992)
Yeah, and now it's like all gravy and we have excess cash flow to spend. It's weird. It's like a total, it's a total like safe place to like try to grow versus a stressful place.

Tyler King (11:15.414)
Yeah, I know you're not used to this. Do you want to stay here or do you want to step on the gas? No.

Rick (11:17.366)
No, this is very weird.

Rick (11:22.934)
No, I like it because we've hit, we've hit the goal. It's like, I feel like I can work on whatever I want to work on. And it's leading to, think some acceleration. I'm happy to update you on the AI stuff that I've been working on real quick, if that's of interest. Yeah. So like, I mean, first of all, on the last episode, I was, I was pretty concerned with our lack of adoption and what I called AI readiness. And I don't have that concern anymore. You talked me off the ledge. And then also I just started working on this stuff and.

Tyler King (11:33.388)
Yeah, let's hear about it.

Rick (11:52.869)
There's also at my day job, there's a big push at windfall to, we want to adopt more AI. So it's, um, it's actually a very important area for me to focus spend time on. But anyway, uh, I just cataloged all the ways we're currently using AI and added it some more. So content writing, we are using AI. You're using AI for coding. Um, there is, uh, what I would call like. I, broader than content, like rubber decking happening on a regular basis by JD, you, me.

with chat GPT that I don't know how you measure the value of, but there's some value in that, particularly as a small team that is not like with only one full-time team member. There is, I set up an EA that is effectively an AI agent, a fake person. Yeah, I told you I was gonna do this a year ago. So she's starting to take on tasks and she scheduled her first meeting, which is exciting.

Tyler King (12:38.42)
Yeah, I hate that. A fake person talking in Slack.

Rick (12:51.156)
And it's very like what I would call like a dumb AI agent, you know, relative to what's possible. It's all, you know, it's actually my no code string back for AI. Basically all the things I use to build. Yes. Yeah. So basically Zapier has an agent agenda platform. Clay has an agenda platform. You can connect all these things. But, but anyway, the main workflow that I've been wanting to build is the

Tyler King (12:55.33)
I assume this is just some tool you bought off the shelf.

Tyler King (13:02.882)
Like you built this. okay. That's cool.

Rick (13:19.188)
I believe leg up health's long-term growth strategy is the ability to identify really strong target accounts and just like spend as much money as possible to convert them to our customer base over a long period of time, in Utah. And so I'm one, one thing I've done is like in this Slack channel, that we have for leg up health, we it's called target accounts. I've historically just posted links to company websites or LinkedIn profiles.

that I believe are target accounts. And they just sit there. Maybe sometimes JD, if he's not too busy, grabs them and does something with them in a spreadsheet, but then eventually it just disappears into the spreadsheet. And then we don't pay for Slack. then the target, the thing that I posted disappears. And so what I basically, the first task I built her to do is she basically grabs whatever URL I post in that target account channel. And you could do this too, Tyler, if you wanted to help.

Identify target accounts. Like let's say you're visiting Utah and you came across a wonderfully awesome leg up health prospect. You would just grab their website URL, post it in this channel and she'll basically, grab it via Zapier. she'll clean the URL. She'll add it to a clay table. Then clay, you know, sort of takes it from there. clay it, have you heard of this? clay is probably the most like easy to implement.

Tyler King (14:34.168)
What is clay?

No, I don't think so. Or maybe you told me and I forgot.

Rick (14:46.882)
like powerful enrichment tool of today. like, it's basically a table system and they've built basically they've, you know how Zoom Info has a database that they will enrich data on companies for you or people. Think of Clay as a table based system that's done that, but they've contracted with every Zoom Info out there and bought licenses. And they basically make it really easy for you to take advantage of all those tools through their table system without

you having to subscribe to each of those tools and then you basically w like they call it water falling, but they, basically have data come in and then you can waterfall off that table. can take action off the table. You can add to the table through third party tools. can leverage AI to do things like send an email, that kind of stuff. but what I have it doing is basically, Elizabeth, who is my AI person, ads,

I'd say, please, please add this to a clay. Yeah. Yes. And she, she adds it to the clay table and then clay basically builds the, the, the, the company profile. And then if the company profile meets our ICP criteria, it goes to the next step, which is identifying people with the right title at the company. And then that they get added to another table. And if, if they're the right title, they get added, they get email address enriched across seven different sources. They get the mobile phone enriched.

Tyler King (15:47.662)
You're very nice to Elizabeth.

Rick (16:14.956)
And now you've got basically the basis for an outreach campaign. The next step that I'm working on is actually having her draft an outreach email. tell me what you think about this. My plan is to have her reach out to these people basically saying, hey, I'm reaching out on behalf of our partners at Legap Health. I'm copying JD on this email. We would love to serve you, blah, blah. Here's what we do. Timing's everything with benefits. If now's not a good time, no worries, but just want to make sure we're on your radar.

Tyler King (16:45.166)
Why not have that just sent from JD?

Rick (16:49.176)
Why not?

Tyler King (16:50.03)
Like why lie to them and send it from a fake person? Because she's not a person?

Rick (16:52.834)
Why is it a lie?

Rick (16:57.07)
She is a person, she has feelings and this is where we're have this debate.

Tyler King (17:02.646)
She's not a person, Rick! You created her! Okay, that's...

Rick (17:03.972)
She's a digital person. She's been around for a long time. Elizabeth Rankin has been my fake person for a very, long time, well before AI.

Tyler King (17:12.726)
I guess I, so I'll say two things. I don't know if I'm your target customer. I probably, there are people who think, this person has an assistant. They're important or something. When I get an email from someone on behalf of someone else, I market as spam immediately. No questions asked. Like spam me yourself. If you want to send me a cold email, cause we get, we get these especially for start to last. Anyone who has a podcast, do you get these or do they all come to me? Yeah. They're like, I'm someone. So reaching out on behalf of so-and-so, this person would make a great guest on your podcast.

Rick (17:34.308)
Oh yeah, I get a ton of them, yeah.

Tyler King (17:42.124)
spam, instant spam. Now that not just because they're cold emailing us, but because it's like, you hired someone else to spam me. I fucking hate that. Now, maybe everyone else doesn't feel that way, but I do. It just feels like it would be more authentic coming from JD and then they can just reply to him. Like, why have this extra step of,

Rick (17:51.652)
Yeah

Rick (18:04.386)
don't feel comfortable sending email on behalf of JD is the number one reason I think is like I don't feel comfortable triggering an email from JD without JD's consent. Yeah, yeah, of course. But that's of course work and effort. And now he's in the loop and I'm trying to get something that I can just do on my own. But yes, it's a good idea. And here's what I think we should do. I think we should test it.

Tyler King (18:07.864)
What do you mean?

Tyler King (18:11.928)
Why not? Well yeah, get his consent.

Tyler King (18:27.958)
It's a lie. I'm just saying you're lying to people. I mean, go ahead. I don't care. Like one of the reasons I like Leg Up Health is because it's your business ethics, mine. you're lying. It's a lie. There's no question it's a lie.

Rick (18:29.594)
man.

Rick (18:37.878)
You think it's unethical?

Rick (18:42.828)
What is a lie? If I represent her as an AI agent, is that different?

Tyler King (18:45.227)
It's not a

Tyler King (18:49.25)
if you're like, if you say I'm an AI agent, that's fine. I mean, I would still find it annoying to get spammed by AI, but that's true at least. But like, okay, like if someone hits reply to this email, it goes to you, correct?

Rick (18:55.853)
Interesting.

Rick (19:03.093)
No, it goes to Elizabeth Reichton's inbox.

Tyler King (19:05.058)
But who reads that?

Rick (19:07.044)
It could be me, it could be you, it could be anyone. Okay, well it could be, I'm just saying it could be.

Tyler King (19:09.634)
So just, well, it isn't me, it's you. So just send it from you. If the reply is going to you anyway, I just don't understand what this misdirection is for.

Rick (19:19.232)
there's no misdirection. It's just a person that is an agent that can do things that has an identity. I told you I was gonna do this a year ago. So you're like, but okay, let's say it works. What are you gonna say then? That it's unethical?

Tyler King (19:29.88)
Yeah, I think I said the same thing then.

Tyler King (19:40.45)
I mean, unethical is strong, like, I don't think it's doing tremendous harm, I just don't understand why we made up a person when there's a real person it could have come from, and when they reply it's going into that real person's inbox, why don't you just send it from that real person?

Rick (19:55.331)
I have no idea. I have to think about that.

Tyler King (19:56.462)
This is some Paul Zane Pilsner shit. For the listener, our old boss did this. He had a fake assistant and he would email with people and you and I both used to laugh at him for doing this and now you're doing it yourself.

Rick (20:09.492)
I there's merit, think there's merit.

Tyler King (20:11.372)
I still don't, the only thing it does, what he was trying to do is give the sense of like, I'm very important, I'm too important to be sending these emails myself. That makes me cringe a little bit, like, you couldn't dare lower yourself to talk to your leads, but he is talking to them, he is this like, supposedly very important person, is the one sending the emails.

Rick (20:20.484)
I

Rick (20:24.26)
You

Rick (20:28.664)
Well, the long term vision is that this this agent operates autonomously. So like, I just want to make that clear. The short term goal is not the destination. It is the step.

Tyler King (20:39.79)
Okay. Yeah, sure.

Rick (20:44.804)
The other value that Elizabeth Rykken provides is spying on competition.

Tyler King (20:49.752)
Say more about that.

Rick (20:50.692)
Basically, she can subscribe to things that may or may not be, she may not be identified as a person of competitive threat.

Tyler King (21:03.598)
like newsletters and stuff.

Rick (21:04.662)
newsletters, connection requests, that kind of stuff.

Tyler King (21:09.134)
This whole thing feels like, you know, people are talking AI all the- like you can just make up a burner gmail address and subscribe to a newsletter. You don't need an AI personality for this, but yeah.

Rick (21:17.496)
But she can summarize stuff, she can read it, she can send me insights.

Tyler King (21:21.742)
Okay. Her having a person out, saying I have this email inbox and I use AI to summarize stuff makes perfect sense to me. Being like, sorry, what's her name again, Elizabeth?

Rick (21:23.844)
You're not into this.

Rick (21:34.436)
Elizabeth summarizes it for me. You don't like that? Elizabeth uses chatGBT as one...

Tyler King (21:36.694)
Yeah. Chatchie PT summarizes it for you and you've, you made a fake picture of a person to use as the avatar for Chatchie PT.

Rick (21:44.612)
Elizabeth uses multiple sources of which JetCPT is one of them to summarize and do AI stuff.

Tyler King (21:56.076)
You don't believe Elizabeth's a person. Okay. We, I think I've said my piece here.

Rick (21:59.621)
I'm very open on this podcast that Elizabeth is an agent. She's not a human being. But I wouldn't go as far to say she's not a person. I'm looking at what the definition of a person is. What's a person?

Tyler King (22:09.592)
Yeah. I don't want, what? Person and human being are synonymous. What? What do you think it's gonna say? A person is a human being or a code?

Rick (22:23.428)
It's a creature.

Tyler King (22:25.816)
That's not the full definition of person. A creature, so my dog, well I don't have a dog anymore. My former dog was a person.

Rick (22:27.108)
Hahaha

Rick (22:33.206)
I don't know, I need to lose more research on the words I'm using. But anyway, the point here is we've adopted AI, there is some utility in it. There are some questionable, like I think you're questioning what the actual utility is in some cases, and also the ethics.

Tyler King (22:47.148)
It's not the utility, it's the authenticity. I think there's a lack of authenticity here, is my concern.

Rick (22:52.418)
So, but I think it's solved if I say, you if I represent her as AI.

Tyler King (22:57.696)
Yeah, that seems less effective to me, but yeah.

Rick (23:02.584)
Maybe it's more effective though.

Tyler King (23:05.438)
Yeah, if you can find people that like getting spammed by AI, then... or cold outreach from AI.

Rick (23:05.988)
Maybe Elizabeth, well, I'm not spamming people.

Elizabeth Reichten could be the smartest health insurance agent in the world.

Tyler King (23:20.334)
You're using a lot of words, Rick, but those words don't have any meaning behind them. She could be. Donald Trump's new cell phone thing could be made in America, but it's not. he said, did you see that? He said that, or one of his sons was like, these phones could be made in America. Well, they're made in China though.

Rick (23:35.14)
I will report back on this at some point. I just want to call out that I was making a pun on agent.

Tyler King (23:43.53)
Okay, gotcha. Sorry, I'm too worked up here, Rick. Okay, I like that you're using all the AI. I have no objection to that. Weird anthropomorphizing it, but okay.

Rick (23:44.43)
Health insurance agent.

Rick (23:58.989)
I don't know what that means. I barely know what person means, Tyler, come on.

Tyler King (24:00.418)
Like humanized. So right now it's taking these leads from Slack, it's putting them into a clay, getting data on them and qualifying them somehow, or not qualifying, but like seeing do they fit.

Rick (24:17.666)
It is qualifying them on an account level and then it's identifying the right people at the company to reach out to.

Tyler King (24:21.75)
Okay. And then telling and then is it sending the email? it?

Rick (24:25.612)
that's not sending the email. The next step is to have it draft the email and then we can decide what to do with it once the email is drafted. could be JD sending it. It could be Elizabeth sending it. I kind of want to experiment with Elizabeth, the AI agent, sending it.

Tyler King (24:40.046)
Okay, cool. Well, we'll get updates on that as I assume. Yeah.

Rick (24:44.078)
But I just want to be clear, this is all experimental. It's something I just want to see what works. It may or may not work. If it works, we'll do more of it and do it thoughtfully within our values. And if not, we will stop doing it. And the best part is Tyler is going to tell me what he thinks.

Tyler King (25:03.032)
I mean, if it works, works, Rick. Cool. So I assume we'll get more updates on that. And that's your main thing. Cause I know you don't have a ton of time for like up health these days, but like the time you have is basically spent trying to figure out how to build these kinds of growth flow automation-y things.

Rick (25:05.678)
Yep.

Rick (25:20.712)
I've brought it to like any AI application I will work on. So it could be content, could be design. I created a new song for Leg Up Health, it's our theme song.

Tyler King (25:30.198)
I heard that was the corniest thing I've ever heard in my life.

Rick (25:34.197)
That was just a 10 word prompt. mean, it could be like, yeah, like that. We could go further with that. There's video creation now. And so pretty much anything. I mean, I think the Holy grail for a leg up is going to be when it comes renewal season. And we're actually summarizing people's current plan versus their new plan and what's changing with some AI and then letting them ask questions before talking to JD. I think that could be really interesting, but we got a lot of infrastructure to build before that.

Tyler King (25:35.894)
Yeah, yeah.

you

Tyler King (25:57.846)
And okay, but you think you can build all that with kind of Zapier and whatever.

Rick (26:03.716)
I don't think I can build the last piece, the renewal piece with that, but I do think that if I can use Elizabeth, the AI agent as a, as a, know, experimental, experimental ground to learn how to train the thoughtful agent and the leg up health ways, AI agent, in the, leg up health ways. I think that, we will have enough learning to apply it to more customer facing stuff.

Tyler King (26:29.688)
Yeah. Cool. All right. You're smirking. No, no, I think it's interesting. I just ate Elizabeth. That's all.

Rick (26:32.93)
You're done with this. All right.

Rick (26:39.054)
What do you order to be called?

Tyler King (26:41.062)
any, anything else? I like something like Claude where it's like, it's, it's the name of a bot. It's not, but, but they're not like, this is like, what's Elizabeth's last name. And there's a picture of Elizabeth Reichten and Slack. There's like a fine line between like, you can talk to Siri or you can talk to Alexa, but they're not pretending to be a human versus like.

Rick (26:54.178)
Righton.

Rick (26:58.107)
Yes.

Tyler King (27:07.618)
first name, last name, here's my picture feels like it crossed the line for me.

Rick (27:12.611)
man, buckle up Tyler. I think you're going to be uncomfortable a lot over the next decade.

Tyler King (27:14.926)
No, I know, I know, I know, I know. Okay, my stuff. I'm coding again. By the way, just got on LinkedIn, someone just said, congratulations on your six year anniversary at up to last. Cause you know, people get these prompts to send these pointless messages. So I guess we've been doing this for six years. And during those six years, I've gone back and forth between coding and not coding many times, but I'm back.

Rick (27:24.388)
Woohoo!

Rick (27:38.616)
Wow.

Tyler King (27:44.384)
Sort of. For leg up health, I mean. No, god, my words are... Okay. For less annoying serum.

Rick (27:50.884)
I I totally messed you up today. By the way, I think Elizabeth just sent you a LinkedIn connection.

Tyler King (27:53.378)
Yeah, I'm flustered.

Tyler King (27:58.958)
Fuck you, Rick. I'm reporting her account. I won't, I won't. But yeah, I'm coding again. This actually touches on something that we discussed last episode. don't know if you remember, but I kind of mentioned like, there's, well, sorry, a little background. One of the reasons it's hard for me to code for less knowing CRM is, well, there's two reasons. One, the code base is just,

Rick (28:05.888)
No, don't do it.

Tyler King (28:27.286)
It's very, it's much more advanced than when I was coding and I just take a very like fast and loose approach to stuff, which is good for kind of startup stage. but the, dev team now is like, want unit tests and we want like you to follow certain protocols and all this. it's, they're not wrong by any means, but if you're only doing it every once in a while, it's very hard to stay on top of the current trends and do it up to their standard. So that's one problem. The other problem is if I'm involved in a project that.

Like all of our most important projects have multiple developers on them. If I take one of those sub projects, but then I get pulled away on something else, like CEO work comes up, I'm blocking everybody else, which is not great. So anyway, what I'm trying to do is find a sweet spot of like things I can code during my spare time. Like if I have a, know, this afternoon, I don't have any meetings and I'm caught up on email and all that. I'm going to be able to spend some time coding.

in a way that's constructive, but that doesn't risk blocking the other developers. And ideally I can do it with kind of my existing knowledge base of how to code and not have to like learn all this newfangled shit that is going on.

Rick (29:36.952)
What does that like leave for you? Where are you finding the pockets?

Tyler King (29:40.086)
Yeah. So the direction that I'm headed right now, I think we'll see how this goes is trying to help build internal tools to make our support team more efficient. we've known for a long time that there's a lot of opportunity to do this. And I, I said last episode we've avoided it. Cause the problem is I don't know what to do with that extra CRM coach time. Like we have some, think eight CRM coaches, customer service people. If let's say we could, you know, make it make the team.

effectively save one full-time person's worth of time, you know, it's against my values to lay someone off because we've made them, you know, we don't need as many people. So then it's like, well, what do they do that's constructive? And it's hard, harder than you'd think to find useful things, especially because they all get 20 % time already. They all get one day a week to do other stuff. So there's already, you know, someone's doing office management, someone else is making videos. You know, we've already got a lot of that stuff happening.

If we free up a whole person's worth of time, it's not obvious what to do with them. So because of that, we've avoided this in the past. At this point, I'm just like, I think there's a lot of, there's so much room to make the team more efficient. I kind of just want to do it and then we'll figure out what to do with that later, kind of.

Rick (30:54.626)
Yeah, it's a problem that you'll solve once you have it. Like it's a good problem to have. It's not a bad problem to have. The other thing is I think to the extent that you inevitably will have turnover and to the extent that you can, I mean a win would be if someone leaves you don't need to replace them. That would be huge.

Tyler King (30:58.668)
Yeah, yeah.

Tyler King (31:16.546)
Yeah, yeah, I'd certainly like to have that as an option without necessarily deciding what like a different version of this is, well, one person moves and becomes a marketer and then we do replace the person that leaves or something like that. yeah, having our options open, it's never going to be a bad thing that the team's operating more efficiently.

Rick (31:35.064)
What are some of the low-hanging fruits that you've identified?

Tyler King (31:38.018)
Yeah, so the thing I'm doing right now is working on, we have kind of an internal phone system that I built on top of Twilio years ago. This kind of connects to my next topic, which I'll tease and then come back to in a second, which is the reason I built our own internal phone system custom code rather than like buying some existing VoIP tool is I wanted to explore the possibility of building it into our product and offering it to our customers. So that's a thing I'm reconsidering now.

There's just a lot of stuff like when people call, automatically log it in the correct contact record in our internal CRM and use AI to summarize it and leave notes so that our customer service people don't have to take notes on their calls anymore, that type of thing. I've done some brainstorming. I probably haven't exhaustively done it, but tons of like, can we reduce spam in contact forms? Because right now we spend...

a few minutes every day just deleting spam from front, right? It's not a huge deal, but if we could remove that, that saves a few minutes every day, right? There's all these internal processes that are being handled with Excel spreadsheets right now that could probably, could build, especially with AI, I could just build a little tool to throw it together.

Rick (32:55.694)
Like what's an example of one of those?

Tyler King (32:57.612)
Yeah, so this is probably the hardest one to automate, but the most impactful one. Creating the customer service schedule is very difficult. I think at a different company that doesn't treat customer service people as white collar workers, and instead they're just like, you're a hourly call center worker. They're probably just like, from this time to this time you're on emails, from this time to this time you're on phones or something like that.

In our case though, every, every serum coach has other responsibilities. They're in various meetings. They get their 20 % time. Some people's 20 % time needs to be on Wednesdays and Thursdays when we're in the office, because it's a physical thing anyway. So we have to like look at someone's existing calendar to see when they're free and then build their support responsibilities. And there's basically three or three or four roles. There's like, you're doing email support. You're the monarch, which kind of means you're in triage duty. You're on inbound phones or you're doing demo calls. So we need to like.

take these eight people, allocate all their time across a week, not overlapping meetings that they've already got on their calendar, and make sure everyone has the right amount of each of these responsibilities. It's pretty complicated. Well, I think I want to, and I think the first step is just building a tool that checks the schedule to see if it's valid. Like, let's look at a week and see, are there overlapping events? If so, flag that.

Rick (34:06.136)
Yeah. Are you going to tackle that one?

Tyler King (34:23.966)
And like each person has this much time allocated to them. think Michael, our head of customer service, I need to talk to him and understand what their existing tools do. Cause he might've already automated some of this in Excel. But I could imagine this being done with AI, even if it's like then a human goes in and shifts some stuff around. That would be pretty high. I think people spend a lot of time putting this schedule together.

Rick (34:45.668)
Yeah.

Rick (34:53.092)
What are you gonna call your bot that you use to create these things?

Tyler King (34:56.832)
Elizabeth, we're going to catfish your own, your AI.

Rick (35:01.892)
Have you thought about, or are you guys using AI and have you tried an AI sort of agent to handle customer inquiries or is that against the values?

Tyler King (35:11.448)
That's on the list. I think it's against the values. If the way most people do this is they're kind of saying, we're going to put this chat bot here and that that's going to make it harder to talk to a real person. I don't want to do that. Obviously, especially it would just be stupid because a, we have the labor to do it and to be, it's one of our huge differentiators. So we don't want to do it in a way that makes people less like for the important things, less likely to use our support, but

I'm very open to doing it for the cases where it's like, is a question that could get answered very quickly. And the customer would actually prefer an immediate answer from AI as opposed to having to like wait for an email from us or whatever. So for example, what I'd like to do is when someone submits a contact form, just have like a little thing on the side of the contact form that's like, hey, here's our AI answer. If this answers your question, great. If not, hit submit there and a real person will.

help you out, like that type of thing I'm very open to.

Rick (36:12.356)
Cool. Do it.

Tyler King (36:13.336)
That's a big project, of course, because you've got to, well, either we have to find an off the shelf solution, which I don't think will work the way we want it to, or we have to build this ourselves, which means ingesting all of our data from our help site and from front. So I need to explore all these, right? At this point, I'm just kind of brainstorming what.

Rick (36:34.468)
I didn't anticipate that you would talk about this today. This was not on my list of like, Tyler's gonna tell me he's working on internal tooling for his coaches.

Tyler King (36:41.315)
Was

Tyler King (36:44.878)
Especially because two weeks ago I explicitly said we've decided not to do this. the next day after we recorded that, I was talking with Bracken and we were just like, yeah, I think this. The coaches have been begging for an updated phone system. So it was pretty obvious like that's a good thing for me to work on. And then that of bled into what are all these other things that we could potentially do.

Rick (36:48.036)
Yeah.

Rick (37:04.525)
Cool.

Tyler King (37:06.177)
Um, see, I'll probably also in doing this, I think there are some just like process things that aren't even technical necessarily. So for example, we, do weekend support. I bet we could punt. bet we could be a little more judicious about which emails we actually respond to over the weekend and be like, this is an import from somebody that's been using us for three years. I bet we can do this on Monday. Um, an import meeting, they send us a file for us to import into their account.

versus like, this is a new lead who's evaluating us, that sent an import in on a Saturday morning. If we can get that imported on Saturday morning, they're, they're evaluating us this weekend. Like we should, we should get going on that. So I, bet there's even some non-technical stuff to do, to just kind of like make things a little smoother. Yeah. I mean, yeah, we, right, right now we do it all. Right. So it's not like that. The one that needs to get responded to, it's not like it's not getting responded to right now.

Rick (37:54.636)
Or yeah, prioritize.

Tyler King (38:04.3)
it's that we're also responding to all these ones that probably there's no real urgency.

Rick (38:08.728)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler King (38:10.894)
Okay, that leads me to another thing I've been toying with, actually you've you've suggested this type of thing before, maybe not this exact one, I forget, but should we try to sell other things to our current customers? Thus far in the history of the company, every time we make the product better, it's always just understood it's baked into the $15 per month price. One way to get more money is to get more users. Another way to get more money is to get more revenue per user.

I don't want to raise prices per se, but selling a separate product to our existing customers is way to get more revenue per user. I'm already working on this phone system, so I am dipping my toe in the water of like, should we build like a VoIP tool and offer it to customers?

Rick (38:57.23)
For what problems, what problem are you looking to solve for them? Like just replacing their existing business phone provider.

Tyler King (39:02.838)
Yeah. So I sent a survey out about this and one of them, so people ask for this all the time. I should still understand why they ask for it, but I think just having a phone system, it's actually exactly what I was just saying for our own internal team, right? Someone calls you up, you pick up, you're taking notes. It should just, that should just go into the CRM, right? It's not necessarily that we'd have a better VoIP system than whatever else is out there, but the deep integration into the CRM could be better.

Rick (39:32.802)
Yep. Yeah. We, like I can, I know a lot about this. This is very much in the rev ops.

realm at a high growth startup. So there are a lot of tools out there that can do this. I haven't really thought about it from an SMB perspective and a CRM integration with the CRM integration goal. Like there's ring central, which is like the, probably the, the big provider to a small business out there. There's also like more sophisticated tools, like outreach and groove and some of these like outreach cadences that have VoIP technology built in that integrate with the CRM, but they're not doing a good job of

recording calls and transcribing them to the CRM. They're logging the call, but they're not necessarily making that call insightful to anyone. Which is, that's a really interesting opportunity, I think. Not just for your customers. Really?

Tyler King (40:18.744)
Mm-hmm.

Tyler King (40:22.808)
I mean, a lot of CRMs already do this also. Yeah, this is a pretty common feature. I wouldn't say most do, but it's not uncommon. It's a pretty significant minority.

Rick (40:29.7)
Cool.

Rick (40:34.262)
I mean, yeah, it makes sense that like, as AI gets more and more valuable, having that be more integrated with your system of record makes more sense than it being a standalone tool.

Tyler King (40:48.398)
Well, I'm not even necessarily talking about AI. mean, there's that stuff too, but even more basic than that is like, what is this? This phone number is linked to a person named Elizabeth. Like just getting their name in the CRM linked to their phone number instead of, my Ring Central phone rang and then I have to pop over to my CRM and start typing their name. It would just be like the thing popped up and I'm entering my notes directly there. Just workflow improvements like that would be a big win.

Because most of our customers, again, I just surveyed them. A lot of them just use their cell phone right now. So even with no AI, it would still be a pretty big improvement.

Rick (41:25.464)
By the way, Elizabeth does need a phone number. need to figure that out. But that's not that's like kind of like tier two stuff, like having her get have a voice, be able to answer phone calls, leave voicemails for people that kind of

Tyler King (41:39.052)
Yeah, can she achieve love? Start a family.

Rick (41:40.836)
She's already feeling an emotional void in my life, so just kidding.

Tyler King (41:46.03)
So I sent a survey out to our customers to basically be like, we definitely have people ask for this and we have a handful of VoIP providers that integrate with us already. So we know there's some demand for this, but just to try and get a sense of the big question is price, because I think a lot of people think of like minutes, like paying per minute of phone as being a very outdated thing. That's from like, you know, your cell phone and

2003, you had to wait till 7 PM to make your calls when you had unlimited calling or whatever. Well, if you're using a Twilio backed VoIP system, it's still a pay per minute thing. a lot of SaaS tools get around this by being like, it's $100. Like Close.com is a CRM that really has a lot of phone integration. Their pricing is very, very expensive to begin with. But then if you go to their pricing page,

It doesn't mention this anywhere. None of these are competitors really. They make it very hard to find this out, but they charge you in addition to their base price, they charge you the Twilio cost. and it's like, if you're talking to someone 20 hours a week, that's just 50 bucks a month just for the hours on the phone. If you're, it's a little off out of whack to pay $15 a month for your CRM and then pay $50 a month to make calls within your CRM. so I was.

They send a survey out to try and collect a variety of pieces of information, but the big question is just, you all say you want this, but do you mean you want this for free or do you mean you'll actually pay for this?

Rick (43:21.572)
How hard is it to develop this type of thing? Do they have like GUIs that come with it that like you could just plug in or do you have to build this thing from scratch?

Tyler King (43:29.086)
I'm not sure. It's not hard. Like, again, we have our own internal tools. So like we've already built, it's not hard to build the GUI. if you use Twilio, which I think is the main kind of, do do you know Twilio? Okay. Yeah. All right. For email or do you use it for, use it for fun? is it like front? Well, what's the UI for that then you like log into Twilio to send a text. Okay.

Rick (43:41.668)
Mm-hmm. We used Toilet Out, Up.

No, we use it for text messaging. And at host, Twilio.

Yeah, so we have no, no, no, sorry. We have Twilio set up as our main phone line. and then, we forward any, like we have forwarding to that line, but it also has text ability. like, if someone texts our main line, we can res or apply to it. We connect it to front to, to use it, but yeah.

Tyler King (44:15.022)
So yeah, pretty much all these SAS tools that have any kind of texting or VoIP functionality, they're pretty much all using Twilio to power it all. They give you this JavaScript library that's like, it's got all the events like, there's an incoming call, place an outgoing call. So yeah, I think we would want to build the UI, but that's not the hard part here.

Rick (44:34.882)
Yeah, I'm actually realizing like a Twilio phone number for Elizabeth right. And is a must because there's got to be some, I'm sure they're building agent agent stuff on top of Twilio's platform. They've got to be doing that.

Tyler King (44:46.922)
Yeah, I know there's a, HeyRosie.com is a bootstrapper. Well, they raise money, but in the bootstrapper community, Jordan Gull runs that that that's different than what you're looking for. That's like an answering service, but, there are definitely people going after this. I don't get the impression that it's at the level where like AI would have a full conversation. but something like an answering service, like basically a better phone tree, I think is pretty doable.

Rick (45:14.946)
Well, what I'm, what I'm taking away from our conversation today is I do need to represent Elizabeth as an AI agent. That's the right thing to do. And I think it solves any dilemma I was having about this, cause I was having dilemmas about this. And then when I do that, like it unlocks a lot of these other features that once you just say you're AI, you could do this kind of stuff. Like you can say, Hey, I'm going to do it this way versus pretend trying to pretend it.

Tyler King (45:35.394)
Right. Yeah, and your answer can be, like a good question. As an AI agent, I think I need to forward you to a human for this, which would be a very weird thing to say if you were acting like you were a human.

Rick (45:47.842)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. It actually provides more room for error in a way. Cool.

Tyler King (45:52.014)
Yeah, yeah. So I sent this survey out. I'm pretty lukewarm on the results. So one of the questions was like, how interested would you be in like, if we offered a VoIP tool, about 50 % said either very interested or somewhat, which sounds promising. But if you narrow it down to like, how many people said they're interested and like the price they said they're willing to pay matches up with, I also asked them, what would you be willing to pay? And.

how many hours per week do you talk on the phone? So you can kind of figure out, these people realistic about what this might cost? Only 18 out of 276 people were like, yes, like this seems like a good customer for this product based on what their expectations are. Yeah. Is that enough?

Rick (46:40.386)
Why not integrate with Google Voice? Why not charge for a Google Voice add-on and let Google Voice do the heavy lifting? I don't know, it seems like there's, you can't? okay. I just wonder if there's a way for you to integrate an existing phone provider that already has all this figured out and then charge for the integration more so than charge you for the whole thing. That way could understand, is this actually something people are willing to pay for or not?

Tyler King (46:48.076)
I don't think you can. don't think that's, I don't think so.

Tyler King (47:06.392)
So two things there. Number one, think charging for integrations is not a thing. Like I think that's a very hard self to someone of like someone else built this product and I'm going to charge you for the privilege of using someone else's product. And B, like we do this with MailChimp where we're like, we don't do email marketing. Bless you. No one can hear, but Rick's got some big sneezes going on here. With MailChimp, we're like, we don't do email marketing, but.

just connect to MailChimp and do it through there. And everyone's just like, I don't want a separate account. don't like, have to contacts now. Like we already have integrations with VoIP tools. People want to place the call in the CRM. They want to be in their CRM. My phone rings, the thing pops. I mean, I guess you're saying we could build that integration deeper than we have it now, but.

Rick (47:53.657)
Yeah, exactly. And then charge for like the premium integration. I don't know. Just a way to lower the effort to test the hypothesis.

Tyler King (47:57.069)
Yeah.

Tyler King (48:02.434)
I don't think that really, I think that integration is at least as hard as building this ourselves. Sinking context is so difficult compared to, again, we already have a VoIP, like I've already built this, like a prototype of this. The question is, will people pay for it in my mind? It's not that hard to build it.

Rick (48:06.702)
Probably is.

Rick (48:19.63)
Can he pre-sell it?

Tyler King (48:22.606)
I've always been skeptical about that in general, as you have, I thought. By pre-sell you mean...

Rick (48:29.844)
J J. D's proven me wrong a lot on this like JD right now is doing an excellent job of Selling what we are what we haven't built yet and then communicating that to you and me and saying hey Like I actually got someone to pay for this. Please build it it's

Tyler King (48:45.016)
But he's, as I understand it, he's selling it to them as if it exists and he's just gonna do it manually. Like, LegUp Health has all these opportunities where it's not, they're not buying tech, they're buying process and we wanna automate the process eventually, but for now JD's doing it manually, right?

Rick (48:58.276)
Yeah, he has a workaround, I guess that's true. Like he's not saying, you know, buy this and then I will build it. He's saying, buy this and we will make it happen.

Tyler King (49:07.15)
Yeah, I think it's hard, especially with software, because I've tried this before. There's all this advice out there from like kind of bootstrapper influencer people that say to do this, but you, I've tried this, you go to a customer and you're like, Hey, like I'm going to, know, we're, we're working on this thing. If you're interested, just put pay for the first year. And everyone's like, I'll pay for the first year after you build it asshole. Like, what are you talking about?

Rick (49:07.876)
I guess there's a nuance there.

Rick (49:28.8)
You could do a little bit more positioning there where it's like, hey, we're unsure if we want to build this. We think that people want this. You say that you want this, but we're not going to build it unless we can get critical mass on pre-commitments. So what we're asking for is you don't have to pay, but you do need to sign an annual contract that you will sign up for this when it's available. If we deliver it by X date, you will agree to this. And you could say, who signs up for that?

And you could, in your head, say, I'm gonna relieve everyone of this contract, like after the fact, yeah.

Tyler King (50:03.47)
It's just for validation, yeah. Yeah, I could. What do you think I'd need to see? Like one of the really hard things here, I gotta go in a few minutes. So 276 people responded to the survey out of, depending on how you count it, either 10,000 or 25,000 customers slash users. So a pretty small sample. But realistically, that also means like even if we had this product and we launched it, like it's just very hard to get people aware that a thing exists.

A lot of it is getting new customers to use. Like, yeah, we'd probably get some, a surge of initial sales from our current customer base, but then it's also like, just our, you know, annual like revenue per user or average revenue per user goes up by 10 % because 5 % of people buy this and it doubles what they pay or whatever. I don't know where I'm going with this. I sent the survey out without really thinking.

What numbers do I need to see here to be interested?

Rick (51:07.032)
Yeah, at the end of the day, I think you just want to build this thing. You feel good about it. You have good, you have some conviction about it. So I would just build it and just see what happens. I don't know. Ship it.

Tyler King (51:16.898)
Yeah. Okay. Let's, let's proceed as if that's the case. In a future episode, I'll make a topic for this. I want to discuss like plan, some planning for it. So for example, what should it cost? I mean, it's going to have to cost the Twilio costs, but do we charge it's $5 a month plus the Twilio costs it's 15, you know, there's that type of thing. And you're going to say research it, but I want to brainstorm one mil. Yeah. We just need one customer.

Rick (51:40.094)
One million dollar. No, I think it's like 25 bucks. It's got to be equal to or more than your current PPM per user per month.

Tyler King (51:53.132)
Yeah, why do you say that?

Rick (51:55.449)
I just think the effort involved in building this thing, maintaining it, I think, I think you're going to find that supporting someone on this system is going to be actually more expensive and more intensive, with higher expectations on their end, than your existing product. You can always go down. It's very hard to go up.

Tyler King (52:11.32)
Well, that's not, yeah, if we go up, way fewer people are gonna use it. Because the cost of the phone system, of the Twilio bill is gonna be significant. That's what's so hard.

Rick (52:24.812)
Yeah, well start at something big and then discount it for your first 100 users.

Tyler King (52:30.798)
Yeah, I think that really clashes with our normal pricing. think the person you that I was between five and 15. You're saying 25. I think a lot of people are going to say you have this CRM you've been you spent 16 years building out with all this functionality for 15 bucks and you want to charge me 25 for this mediocre prototype of a VoIP tool.

Rick (52:52.77)
that integrates with it? Yeah, I do. If you got a Ring Central, you're gonna pay more than this.

Tyler King (52:58.208)
No, you're not gonna pay anywhere close. The Ring Central's way cheaper than that. Yeah, because the minutes are included with Ring Central.

Rick (53:01.485)
No, it's not.

Rick (53:07.18)
cause they have their own system.

Tyler King (53:08.704)
It depends very much on how much calling you do. yeah, RingCentral is like the one, most of these tools charge per minute or they bundle it, like you get this many minutes for this price. RingCentral is the one where it's just like unlimited calling. I don't know how they do that, but.

Rick (53:10.809)
Bye.

Rick (53:26.424)
Yeah, interesting. Okay.

Tyler King (53:28.11)
Anyway, we don't have time to, that's just one of many topics like pricing. Is it a standalone? Like it's a very big shift for Less Annoying Serum to go from it's $15 a month to we also have this add-on, but do we position this as a separate tier? Do we call it an add-on? Is it a separate product you can actually buy on its own? And then it's literally buy these two products, but they integrate with each other. There's a lot of stuff to think through. So I'll keep this on the list. All right.

Rick (53:31.438)
That is the topic, yeah.

Rick (53:51.609)
Yes, there is. I'd love to talk about this. Well, anything else you want to chat about? All right. Well, if you'd like to review past topics and show notes, visit startuptolast.com. See you next time.

Tyler King (53:56.706)
No, nothing else on my mind.

Tyler King (54:03.8)
See ya.